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whyfalsewhy

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#113 - I'm gonna call it here you are a feminist aren't you, do you b…  [+] (3 new replies) 04/22/2015 on Jus Sayin 0
User avatar
#125 - knackie (04/22/2015) [-]
"I'm gonna call it here you are a feminist aren't you"
This is why this kind of generalized thinking is harmful. I didn't immediately agree with you, so not only did you assume I was a feminist, you even CLAIMED I was without even actually knowing.

"do you believe in equal rights for every one or just women?"
When it surrounds the issues of gender and sexes I believe in equal rights for all. That does not make me a feminist because that statement encompasses females. It does not make me an MRA because that statement encompasses males. It does not make me an "egalitarian" because it encompasses all. It is my belief, that is fluid, that can change. That does not, and should not, be forced into 1 rigid term and definition.

"You can't look into all things"
That's exactly my point. You shouldn't make broad statements on something as if its absolute fact, when you can't get all the facts and get the whole picture.
"and unfortunately all humans are built to default to the broadest term"
I don't trust this statement.
"the more intelligent of us care to define terms"
Which isn't very intelligent considering trying to "define terms" just make a bigger mess because trying to define such a thing and group people only attempts to make complicated issues/topics overly simplified.
"and look at people on an individual basis but people like us are far a few between."
So you take that to mean that people like this should stop doing whats right by not generalizing and actually understanding these issues are complex and just give up because its hard and not many people believe the same way?

"I am smarter than most people and i hate that because i think I'm an idiot what dose that say for us as a species."
Rephrase that please, I have no clue what you were trying to say or what statement you were trying to make.
User avatar
#130 - whyfalsewhy (04/22/2015) [-]
No i gathered it from your replies and general defense of the term this and the language you use, this coupled with the way you carry yourself i mean this as in the way you write is very well laid out it gives a sense of usefulness ease of understanding for the most part, this give the impression of someone who i used to having a discussion and the language you use seems defensive which means generally you are either religious (one of the lesser liked ones), atheistic and or a feminist, i see this all the time and it's a way in which generalizations are useful. I meant it in the form of a question though so it comes down to my stupidity.

Contrasting to what i said above I'm a little confused by this statement but i will try my response just in case i am right about it for time sake.
Beliefs and understanding are as you say fluid but all liquids rest in their container the question is not what is the fluid but rather what contains it we can change the container but at this moment the container shaping the liquid is the one I'm interested in.

Care to elaborate, i was simply saying it's our base instinct to go by the broadest term it's easier and if it's easier people will do it more, people tend to work on a effort vs time basis if it's hard and they don't get a good enough reward from it they won't bother.

Terms are used to do the opposite, we need this and yes it can cause issues but unfortunately language is a messy thing and until we are Borg drones hearing each others thoughts this isn't likely to be fixed soon so we make do with what we have.

I'm not sure what you meant by this next point it's a little confusing but i think i understand it correct me if I'm wrong. I meant this as in if you were truly interested in a topic you wouldn't cast a broad stroke you would look into it in detail i also meant it in tandem with the point above.

I consider myself to be above the average intelligence of most people, i am basing this off of what i see in media and in peers of a similar age, although i don't think i know enough and that in general i lack what knowledge i should have gained and because of this i consider myself to be of low intelligence i then compare that feeling and compare it to my peers and lose faith in Humanity as a species.

On a side note I'm enjoying this it's not often i bump into someone that can keep continuity.
User avatar
#139 - knackie (04/22/2015) [-]
"No i gathered it from your replies and general defense of the term this and the language you use, this coupled with the way you carry yourself i mean this as in the way you write is very well laid out it gives a sense of usefulness ease of understanding for the most part, this give the impression of someone who i used to having a discussion and the language you use seems defensive which means generally you are either religious (one of the lesser liked ones), atheistic and or a feminist, i see this all the time and it's a way in which generalizations are useful. "

So, basically you just assumed, because of YOUR connotations for a feminist, and what YOU believe a feminist acts like, you chose to believe I am something I'm not.
You just proved my point as to why generalizing is harmful.
"Beliefs and understanding are as you say fluid but all liquids rest in their container"
And the issue being that not everyone's container is not the same.
"the question is not what is the fluid but rather what contains "
No, that is the question. That should be the only question. "What are the ideas espoused by this individual and how do I feel about them?" not "How does this person identify their beliefs and how do I feel about this identity?"
"but at this moment the container shaping the liquid is the one I'm interested in. "
I don't see how that's useful at all.


" i was simply saying it's our base instinct to go by the broadest term it's easier and if it's easier people will do it more, people tend to work on a effort vs time basis if it's hard and they don't get a good enough reward from it they won't bother. "
If I have to shift through dozens of Nazi's to find the one Nazi who isn't a eugenicist. I will fucking do it. And so should everyone else. We get no where by generalizing and do more harm than good.

"Terms are used to do the opposite, we need this and yes it can cause issues"
Even if something is intended for a specific purpose, it can still serve to do the opposite. And in this case, it mostly does.
" we need this"
No we don't.
"and yes it can cause issues but unfortunately language is a messy thing and until we are Borg drones hearing each others thoughts this isn't likely to be fixed soon"
So if you know it causes issues, when why continue doing it? And yes, we can fix it. We can fix it by simply not generalizing and hearing peoples own ideas and opinions and understanding how we feel about the ideas people have rather than the label they choose to identify with.

" I meant this as in if you were truly interested in a topic you wouldn't cast a broad stroke you would look into it in detail i also meant it in tandem with the point above. "
That's exactly what I'm saying. And even if you aren't truly interested, it would still be wrong.

"I consider myself to be above the average intelligence of most people, i am basing this off of what i see in media and in peers of a similar age, although i don't think i know enough and that in general i lack what knowledge i should have gained and because of this i consider myself to be of low intelligence i then compare that feeling and compare it to my peers and lose faith in Humanity as a species. "
I...I don't think that...relates to anything we're talking about...
"On a side note I'm enjoying this it's not often i bump into someone that can keep continuity"
Good discussion leads to good conclusions.



#173 - They would be more suited outside that would annoy the **** ou… 04/22/2015 on Techno Subway -1
#107 - Not all Nazis killed the Jews some even helped them most were …  [+] (5 new replies) 04/22/2015 on Jus Sayin 0
User avatar
#109 - knackie (04/22/2015) [-]
But if you go entirely off of the one majority, without actually looking into a movement or such. You'd be wrong for that. Even if you were 100% right, prematurely judging something and having all your expectations met, would not make that action right.

You should learn all you can about something before judging it because its that form of uninformed opinion making that fuels hatred and bigotry.
User avatar
#113 - whyfalsewhy (04/22/2015) [-]
I'm gonna call it here you are a feminist aren't you, do you believe in equal rights for every one or just women? (Genuine question not trying to sound sarcastic my wording dose that sometimes)

You can't look into all things and unfortunately all humans are built to default to the broadest term the more intelligent of us care to define terms and look at people on an individual basis but people like us are far a few between.

I am smarter than most people and i hate that because i think I'm an idiot what dose that say for us as a species.
User avatar
#125 - knackie (04/22/2015) [-]
"I'm gonna call it here you are a feminist aren't you"
This is why this kind of generalized thinking is harmful. I didn't immediately agree with you, so not only did you assume I was a feminist, you even CLAIMED I was without even actually knowing.

"do you believe in equal rights for every one or just women?"
When it surrounds the issues of gender and sexes I believe in equal rights for all. That does not make me a feminist because that statement encompasses females. It does not make me an MRA because that statement encompasses males. It does not make me an "egalitarian" because it encompasses all. It is my belief, that is fluid, that can change. That does not, and should not, be forced into 1 rigid term and definition.

"You can't look into all things"
That's exactly my point. You shouldn't make broad statements on something as if its absolute fact, when you can't get all the facts and get the whole picture.
"and unfortunately all humans are built to default to the broadest term"
I don't trust this statement.
"the more intelligent of us care to define terms"
Which isn't very intelligent considering trying to "define terms" just make a bigger mess because trying to define such a thing and group people only attempts to make complicated issues/topics overly simplified.
"and look at people on an individual basis but people like us are far a few between."
So you take that to mean that people like this should stop doing whats right by not generalizing and actually understanding these issues are complex and just give up because its hard and not many people believe the same way?

"I am smarter than most people and i hate that because i think I'm an idiot what dose that say for us as a species."
Rephrase that please, I have no clue what you were trying to say or what statement you were trying to make.
User avatar
#130 - whyfalsewhy (04/22/2015) [-]
No i gathered it from your replies and general defense of the term this and the language you use, this coupled with the way you carry yourself i mean this as in the way you write is very well laid out it gives a sense of usefulness ease of understanding for the most part, this give the impression of someone who i used to having a discussion and the language you use seems defensive which means generally you are either religious (one of the lesser liked ones), atheistic and or a feminist, i see this all the time and it's a way in which generalizations are useful. I meant it in the form of a question though so it comes down to my stupidity.

Contrasting to what i said above I'm a little confused by this statement but i will try my response just in case i am right about it for time sake.
Beliefs and understanding are as you say fluid but all liquids rest in their container the question is not what is the fluid but rather what contains it we can change the container but at this moment the container shaping the liquid is the one I'm interested in.

Care to elaborate, i was simply saying it's our base instinct to go by the broadest term it's easier and if it's easier people will do it more, people tend to work on a effort vs time basis if it's hard and they don't get a good enough reward from it they won't bother.

Terms are used to do the opposite, we need this and yes it can cause issues but unfortunately language is a messy thing and until we are Borg drones hearing each others thoughts this isn't likely to be fixed soon so we make do with what we have.

I'm not sure what you meant by this next point it's a little confusing but i think i understand it correct me if I'm wrong. I meant this as in if you were truly interested in a topic you wouldn't cast a broad stroke you would look into it in detail i also meant it in tandem with the point above.

I consider myself to be above the average intelligence of most people, i am basing this off of what i see in media and in peers of a similar age, although i don't think i know enough and that in general i lack what knowledge i should have gained and because of this i consider myself to be of low intelligence i then compare that feeling and compare it to my peers and lose faith in Humanity as a species.

On a side note I'm enjoying this it's not often i bump into someone that can keep continuity.
User avatar
#139 - knackie (04/22/2015) [-]
"No i gathered it from your replies and general defense of the term this and the language you use, this coupled with the way you carry yourself i mean this as in the way you write is very well laid out it gives a sense of usefulness ease of understanding for the most part, this give the impression of someone who i used to having a discussion and the language you use seems defensive which means generally you are either religious (one of the lesser liked ones), atheistic and or a feminist, i see this all the time and it's a way in which generalizations are useful. "

So, basically you just assumed, because of YOUR connotations for a feminist, and what YOU believe a feminist acts like, you chose to believe I am something I'm not.
You just proved my point as to why generalizing is harmful.
"Beliefs and understanding are as you say fluid but all liquids rest in their container"
And the issue being that not everyone's container is not the same.
"the question is not what is the fluid but rather what contains "
No, that is the question. That should be the only question. "What are the ideas espoused by this individual and how do I feel about them?" not "How does this person identify their beliefs and how do I feel about this identity?"
"but at this moment the container shaping the liquid is the one I'm interested in. "
I don't see how that's useful at all.


" i was simply saying it's our base instinct to go by the broadest term it's easier and if it's easier people will do it more, people tend to work on a effort vs time basis if it's hard and they don't get a good enough reward from it they won't bother. "
If I have to shift through dozens of Nazi's to find the one Nazi who isn't a eugenicist. I will fucking do it. And so should everyone else. We get no where by generalizing and do more harm than good.

"Terms are used to do the opposite, we need this and yes it can cause issues"
Even if something is intended for a specific purpose, it can still serve to do the opposite. And in this case, it mostly does.
" we need this"
No we don't.
"and yes it can cause issues but unfortunately language is a messy thing and until we are Borg drones hearing each others thoughts this isn't likely to be fixed soon"
So if you know it causes issues, when why continue doing it? And yes, we can fix it. We can fix it by simply not generalizing and hearing peoples own ideas and opinions and understanding how we feel about the ideas people have rather than the label they choose to identify with.

" I meant this as in if you were truly interested in a topic you wouldn't cast a broad stroke you would look into it in detail i also meant it in tandem with the point above. "
That's exactly what I'm saying. And even if you aren't truly interested, it would still be wrong.

"I consider myself to be above the average intelligence of most people, i am basing this off of what i see in media and in peers of a similar age, although i don't think i know enough and that in general i lack what knowledge i should have gained and because of this i consider myself to be of low intelligence i then compare that feeling and compare it to my peers and lose faith in Humanity as a species. "
I...I don't think that...relates to anything we're talking about...
"On a side note I'm enjoying this it's not often i bump into someone that can keep continuity"
Good discussion leads to good conclusions.



#106 - I don't like the phrase feminist simply because as a man i am …  [+] (7 new replies) 04/22/2015 on Jus Sayin +1
User avatar
#126 - knackie (04/22/2015) [-]
"You can't believe in equality for both genders and/or sexes unless you share MY definition. It doesn't matter what you honestly believe or say you believe or that you act upon those beliefs. But that you have the same title as me."
User avatar
#131 - whyfalsewhy (04/22/2015) [-]
It's not my definition it is the one that the language has adapted into that term, it's like saying "I'm a television" while i may have a separate definition for the word that definition is not widely known and in terms of verbal or written discourse using it as such creates confusion wasting time and effort when i can use more accurate and established terms to better portray what it is that i believe myself to be.
User avatar
#134 - knackie (04/22/2015) [-]
"It's not my definition it is the one that the language has adapted into that term"
Then by that point, you can't honestly say what it is. Because I'm fairly certain not everyone shares the same grand definition that you do for what a feminist is.
" it's like saying "I'm a television" while i may have a separate definition for the word that definition is not widely known and in terms of verbal or written discourse using it as such creates confusion"
Honestly you can't compare a solid object to an entire mindset/ideology. That's the problem these labels and terms produce, they're trying to take complex issues, and make them simple so people can say what they want about them, without actually thinking. This is prevalent by the U.S.'s 2 party dichotomy.
"when i can use more accurate and established terms to better portray what it is that i believe myself to be."
That's what you should do, instead of saying "I am an egalitarian" because what you say is an egalitarian may mean something different to me, then to someone else, and so on and so forth. We should put forward ideas, not labels.
#135 - whyfalsewhy (04/22/2015) [-]
<<------ this i use this to tell me what a feminist is, anything past that is defined by other labels and words that can also be found there.

I compared them as a bit of a hyperbole but the point is still valid and wasn't addressed, if you take a label you claim that you share the beliefs of that label/ideology, for example you could claim to be a christian all that tells me is you believe in Jesus Christ, if you wish to be know for more that just that one point you must use other terms and labels so you aren't writing a book to cover what can be said in a few bullet points when there is no term or label define a point.

<<--- this again if you do not know the meaning of a word you should not just make one up, an egalitarian is someone who believes everyone is equal and should have equal rights, if you find my definition to be flawed check the book there is a reason it's there.
User avatar
#136 - knackie (04/22/2015) [-]
" i use this to tell me what a feminist is, anything past that is defined by other labels and words that can also be found there. "
I highly doubt that considering that's a Latin dictionary that uses "Lorem Ipsum" which is specifically used to make no sense.
But honestly, once again, there's the issue of one books definition changing from another's.

Dictionary.com 's definition:
adjective
1.
asserting, resulting from, or characterized by belief in the equality of all people, especially in political, economic, or social life.
Oxford Dictionary's definition:
adjective
Of, relating to, or believing in the principle that all people are equal and deserve equal rights and opportunities:

Now, lets say you believe that all people believe are equal and deserve equal rights.
And lets say I believe all people are equal, but do not deserve equal rights.

Am I still an egalitarian? Am I not? Your answer, and my answer, and someone else's answer may differ quite a lot.

"this again if you do not know the meaning of a word you should not just make one up"
I don't think so either. You should present ideas as they are, ideas, instead of a blanket label for people to assign their own definitions to. Because people certainly will.
" if you find my definition to be flawed check the book there is a reason it's there."
Oh yes. Let me check the "Lorem Ipsum" dictionary.
Oh wait, its a Latin poem that's been heavily altered to make no sense, and is only used in graphic design to show how text would appear.
User avatar
#115 - basichaharemix (04/22/2015) [-]
I actually completely agree with your feelings on the term feminist. Share most of those sentiments too. Of course there are definitely male feminists, and at times I would say I am one of them. But at the same time...I don't want to be called a fucking feminists because if it's truly for equality shouldn't it use a word that includes both genders? (And I guess for all those wacky what are they called..."animalkin", all genders? Know what I mean?)

And also yeah I am sure there are dudes out there that use "I'm a guy and a feminist! Fuck!" as a means to get some action. There also some guys out there that completely throwaway their self-respect and say shit that people want to hear, but not what they truly think. Those type of people just piss me off.
User avatar
#118 - whyfalsewhy (04/22/2015) [-]
If you completely agree you should use the term egalitarian it's a better word and is more accurate.

Yeah i agree that there are people who can be born male and feel more like a female and it's brilliant that sex changes are a thing for them most of the time this comes down to something medical causing hormones to work differently for that person the whole more that one gender thing is stupid and as well you either have a penis or a vagina your gender counts on that if you're a man who wants to be a woman then you are a pre-op man not a woman if you were a woman you wouldn't need a sex change and vise-versa.
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