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Rank #2173 on Comments
Level 314 Comments: Wizard
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- Pretty much everything > Fairy Tail
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Say what you want about the plot, but I LOVED Mashima's art style by the end of Fairy Tail. I hope I can get as good as him by the time I'm 40.
Rave Master > Fairy Tail
Pretty much everything > Fairy Tail
I never read the manga, but in my opinion Fairy Tail turned into hot garbage really fast. The same story arc progression copypasted nearly every time (villain is introduced -> heroes get beat up -> short recovery time -> chase after villain -> suddenly everyone beats their countervillain 1v1 with little sense or explanation), and with Erza he created one of the worst Mary Sue characters I have ever seen across all media I have consumed to this day. I'm out of the loop for a long time now so things might be different, but back then they never even seriously trained, they just got power ups whenever the power of friendship felt like it. The anime also had typical Shonen problems quality wise, but that's not Hiro's fault.
The absolute worst part though is the unnecessarily excessive fanservice, I don't think there are many ongoing mangas out there (that arent ecchi by design) who top the sheer numbe rof occasions female characters end up in tattered clothing, have ridiculous outfits or do some other otaku pleasing garbage.
Hiro only planned it to go up to Phantom Lord arc which is where Natsu fight Gajeel for the first time while their base is getting trashed so up to then all of it was planned and it was pretty alright; fanservice still abundant but it didnt feel like too much, the guild felt like an actual family before it became Team A and Team B of main characters.
However after releasing those chapters it sold really well so Hiro started making more but did just about everything on the fly hence why it went to ass real fast (both literally and figuratively)
I am the first, even as a large fan of fairytail, to admit it sucks in most parts.
Reason I like it? It got magic and explosive fighting scenes and friendship focus. I am a major sucker for all those tropes.
That and the fact that he straight up copied Oda so many times made it unbearable for me. I honestly can´t think of more then one worse case of plagiarism.
I'm not saying he didn't, just I've read the whole FT Manga and it is for the most part far too shit in such an unique way for me to have been looking for plagiarism.
Things like this.
PLUS the characters. I don´t remember what he was called in FT; but it copied Red-haired Shanks completely. Same with Kuma the Bear and many others. If you google One Piece/Fairy Tail, you´ll be bombared with those things.
It´s been years since I bothered to read FT, so I personally don´t remember too many moments, but you can dig them up rather easily.
Nah, dude. Most examples I found were either coincidental or very minor.
Like, in this picture they cite Angel as being a ripoff of Doflamingo because they both wear big fluffy cloathing, and Cobra and Hancock because despite their abilities and appearances being different they have snake-like creatures as pets, and that Elfman turned into a cheetah man one time.
Even that picture you posted there is more than likely just coincidental.
The only examples that seem to hold any water are that the series both have a 'very big guy with a book' characters, which is an unique enough idea to be suspicious, and the fact that the series' resident uberbadasses both have cool capes and warm hair colours.
This looks like it's just butthurt anime fans reaching for a way to criticise Hiro Mashima, when you really don't need to try very hard at all to find things to criticise the guy over. Like... you could write an essay on the narrative failures of Fairy Tail.
I don't recall Erza being a Mary Sue. They gave her a back story, she has a personality that contrasts other characters, she has character flaws, and she doesn't just win every fight.
Then again I dropped at the end of the tournament arc since the whole series was going down hill.
Having a backstory or personality doesn't mean you can't be a Mary Sue. She's an extremely idealized character, with a sobstory background that is supposed to make you like or sympathize with her and outside of comedic scenes almost always portrayed as the most capable person out of everyone. I wouldn't say she's completely impeccable, but enough little things add up so she classifies as a Mary Sue.
What I thought of when I called her one was mostly because of her magic ability and the fact she NEVER lost a fight up until the point I watched the anime, though I forgot exactly where I stopped. And it's HOW she wins that sticks out because it's not by clever tactics or training, but simple overpowering. She basically just pulls out a never before seen weapon or set of armor that miraculously counters her enemy perfectly. Oh, and besides being able to summon whatever equipment she needs she can somehow handle every weapon type in existence at least decently.
The thing is, the way characters win fights is always typical shounen bullshit in that show. The Edolas arc peaked with this, with the whole "where do you keep getting the strength to fight back? You shouldnt have any energy left!" "We just borrow it from tomorrow!"
Her past actually ties into character issues that show up in her arc, which is the sense that she feels guilty about her past and no longer wants to be considered weak. She starts the series off quite different, trying too hard to be seen as the toughest person in the guild, and comes off as cold to people and Gray even tells her at one point. The problem is kind of the issue with it being not-the-main-character in long-running shounen series, in that once her character arc is resolved her character development drops down significantly, and that happened less than a fifth of the way into the series. She doesn't get a ton over the course of the series, but it's enough that I don't think she's a Mary Sue. She has more depth than Natsu anyways; if you want Mary Sue, he's a far easier target to pick.
I don't recall her pulling "the winning costume" out from a hat all that often. In fact a lot of the time her armor doesn't really help so she has to win via speed or brute force, which is at least some level of interesting. Plus, the whole point of her ability is that it has adaptation. She doesn't just get to shoot a bigger fireball or a bigger block of ice at someone.
I think the problem is Fairy Tail itself is a rather shallow work with quality that only comes in waves (which get fewer and fewer in number as it goes on). If anything I found her more enjoyable than most of the rest of the cast (Juvia, Natsu, Lucy, etc.) and issues like "nobody ever really trains to get better" is something that is more a flaw with everyone.
But I digress. I stopped watching it and stopped reading it after I came to the realization it peaked years ago and was never going to get any better.
She never loses, ever for no fucking reason!
The thing is, I like theorycrafting a lot and just thinking about the different abilities, and Fairy Tail has a TON of really varied ones (similar to One Piece)
Here's the thing though, the entire "guild" idea is wasted and like you said, it's extremely repetitive. Also, yes, the fanservice brings it down quite a bit. Also, the latest arc
the one where basically everyone dies, except NOBODY DIES. Like, what the FUCK is up with that? Everyone is basically confirmed to die, and then they cough and wake right the fuck back up.
It's a damn shame, really.
My problem with FT is in spite of the crazy things you can do with the powers, they are for the most part wholly bereft of synergy. One Piece has spoiled me with the clever way that powers interact and change, like how Luffy is wholly immune to one of the most powerful Devil's Fruits in the series because he's made of rubber, and how Magellan could be fought back with the aid of Mr. 3 because he's technically still a Paramecia type.
I don't remember any moments like that from FT. The closest thing I remember to that is the Dragon Slayers' ability to consume their own type of magic.
Oh it certainly has things going for it I agree. I believe a Shonen stands and falls with the superpower design and its incorporation into the world. As an author, you will want certain rules to apply to your superpowers to make them comprehensible, but without creating too many limitations to be unable to create whatever you want. If your design falls more towards one of the two it begins to make problems. If you have too many rules it becomes stale (Bleach, Naruto), have none and your world will feel whimsical and inconsistent, which in turn erases tension. What I mean is, even though I find Fairy Tail's story and characters to be lackluster at best, it's still interesting to learn about new magic and how different types of it fair against each other in battle, because they're designed very well. The type of magic could be whatever the guy wants to create, but he usually limits characters to one form of it and imposes rules and limitations on their use, which makes it interesting.
One Piece is the prime example of excellent superpower design, and a more recent example, as hyped as it is, Boku no Hero Academia is also great in that regard.
I dunno what you mean about Naruto growing stale because it had too many rules. The fights that adhered to established rulesets are the best ones in the series.
Neji vs Sound 5 Spider Dude, Shikamaru vs Scythe Guy, Jiraya vs Pain.
As for BNHA, I can't say it's superpower design is as interesting as all that. It strikes me that where One Piece works by way of taking one very broad idea and then stretching it every which way it can go, taking it to every logical extreme, and nourishing all the interplay between them, BNHA takes very specific ideas and keeps them focussed on those core, specific elements.
It's clear that the power system of One Piece is designed to make one-on-one fights as cool, varied, and surprising as possible, whilst the BNHA system is designed to make cooperation between different heroes as cool, varied, and interesting as possible.
They're both good, don't get me wrong, but it feels like Kohei Horikoshi really isn't all that invested in the mechanics of the powers, or building them in balanced ways. My biggest gripe with BNHA for example is how Todoroki is so brokenly powerful that as a child he can create an enormous glacier's worth of ice in an instant, completely dwarfing almost every other power on display, whereas Oda seems to be far, far more careful about balance, like how we constantly see fruits that you'd think are completely worthless, when put in the hands of someone competent, turning into something terrifyingly broken, and demonstrating that the power of the Devil's Fruit doesn't come from the fruit itself, but your creativity in how you use it and combine it with other techniques.
It feels like in the world of BNHA the quirk really is the final say in the matter, whereas in One Piece you have Enel fighting on par with the fruit that is most dangerous to him, because Enel is clever.
Eh, I might have phrased it somewhat wrong and should have elaborated. What I meant is that especially in early Naruto, Kishimoto went out of his way to explain every facet of the different powers in an almost scientific way, including how chakra flows through the body and whatnot, creating rules where it didn't need them which in itself was a nice thing to have if you were a fan, but not everything was necessary to the plot or to understand what's going on in fights. At that point it was just flavour, but ultimately it turned out to be meaningless as apparently it didn't fit Kishimoto's vision anymore and he just came up with new overpowered stuff to not be bound by those rules anymore. Notice how the fights you mentioned take place pre timeskip or during the Pain Arc, which is definitely where Naruto was as its strongest if you ask me. After that Naruto fell off quite a bit imo and the final chapters might be impressive in scale but not because of tactics or clever interplay between powers.
You observations concerning One Piece and BNHA seem right to me, and I never wanted to imply that BNHA's design is just as good as One Piece's is, because it clearly isn't as refined. Then again, BNHA is still relatively young. I don't see Todoroki's power level as problematic as you do though, since BNHA's theme is quite different, focussing more on teamplay (as you mentioned) and furthermore on the notion that everyone has a specific field of expertise that is useful under certain circumstances - the offensive quirk types stick out so much so far because the focus of the series' lies very much on one on one combat. Horikoshi needs to create more scenarios to put different people in the spotlight and showcase that pure offensive power can also be a shortcoming.
I never said post-time-skip Naruto isn't a descent into dogshit, because it is, but Naruto is always at it's strongest when it obeys it's ruleset. The thing you mentioned about learning about Chakara not only demonstrates the scientific mindset of Ninjitsu, but also informs you on how things like Byakuga, Juuken, and Primary Lotus work by interacting with the body.
Btw, when you said 'notice that' you basically followed by saying 'the fights you said were good all came from the good parts of the series'. I'm not trying to nit-pick or anything, just if you're gonna unpack where Naruto's decline begins the exact moment is when the Sand Ninja appear in the Sound 5 arc instead of the rest of the Konoha 12. All the people still fighting have team-mates with complimentary skillsets that would be valuable against their current enemies but instead three characters from a different arc entirely show up and hijack the fights. Not only does it lessen the emotional impact of their fights, it also spoils the reveal that Gaara grew up to be the Kazekage and isn't a shitty human being about it, fast-tracking his character development. That's the point where Kishimoto begins to focus far more on the gimmick characters and where the Konoha 12 (save for Shikamaru) begin to drift off into the background.
As for the offensive power thing. I'd agree if Todoroki's Ice wasn't also fantastic from a utility standpoint also. He will be very good at shoring up collapsing buildings, protecting people, traversing the environment, etc. He is more powerful as a teenager than most heroes are as adults and it feels very much like he hasn't earned that power.
Compared to One Piece where the Devil's Fruit powers clearly demonstrate the skill-level of the user based on their creativity with the fruit, and the various non-fruit abilities like Haki, Diable Jambe, and Asura all inherently imply great martial prowess, BNHA has really suffered by giving Todoroki that much power out of the gate. When you compare it to Bakugo, whose quirk is also very powerful, you can see there is a clear distinction between Bakugo's skilled ability to exploit every aspect of his quirk and Todoroki's ability to just activate his quirk at will and in an instant beast out godlike amounts of power.
Bakugo feels very much like a teenage prodigy, whereas Todoroki feels very much like he has so much power he rarely needs to be creative with it (which we've seen he is capable of doing as when he fought with Ida and blocked his engines, but he only needed to be clever because Ida's the only person fast enough to evade his beastly instant-cast endgame powers.)
fairy tail is just one piece but with shittier everything
I pretty much share the same opinion as you but Id like to at least that the fanservice/gag of gray always losing his shirt was pretty iconic and entertaining
This is probably the only art evolution here where the main style remains, the changes made were simply to make characters easier and faster to draw.
The same thing happened to JoJo's illustrator, they started off with practically the same art style as fist of the north star and gradually evolved into their own, it's kinda neat.
Not really the same thing, as Rave didn't look like one piece
or at least not nearly as much
and neither did mashima-en. He started to transition to looking like one piece when he made Monster Soul
- I really love these edits
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