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Rank #31229 on SubscribersLevel 224 Comments: Mind Blower
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|#4 - Jesus was a Jew and he went to heaven. [+] (6 new replies)||10/28/2010 on Forever Shalom||-1|
|#10 - How can you say that with the wonderfully long arches it has, … [+] (33 new replies)||10/28/2010 on Win? I think so.||+4|
#11 - thephantur (10/28/2010) [-]
General Standards aren't for me. Sure it can be... decent if you're not an avid reader. But for one who enjoys literature, it is a mockery.
Emotional subplots? Please.
Character depth? Sure, I'll give you that.
I find it too... cookie-cutter? It's basically this... Person finds out he's special. Becomes hero. Person faces odds he can't possibly face. He finds out he has a new power and overcomes it.
Basically Harry Potter. Don't agree? Let me continue on in another post.
#18 - raibean (10/28/2010) [-]
I, for one, AM an avid reader, but it also depends on what you read. That "cookie cutter" you're talking about is called the Hero Cycle, and while the overall span of it is the same (and the reason there's a name for it is because it's so common even in classical literature), Harry Potter deviates from it in that he doesn't go on his journey alone. Another thing is that I don't think Harry finds out he has a "new" power. The magic doesn't count; that's the special part and it doesn't make him any different from anyone else in the magical world. By emotional subplots, I talk about the natural "life" things Harry goes through - the parts that make it so normal, the stuff that lends depth to the characters.
#22 - thephantur (10/28/2010) [-]
The Hero Cycle is different but the same. The concept is the same but now encompasses three characters. Same thing.
The magic is different. In the book, I recall that dumbeldore didn't know what they were and had to make educated guesses. It's never happened before in their world so, yes, it is a new power.
The emotional subplots... like I said before, the characters do have depth to them. That's something I can't disagree on.
Other than that and the originality, I can't say anything good about the book.
#27 - raibean (10/28/2010) [-]
The hero cycle, IMO, doesn't encompass the Golden Trio, since most of the steps don't apply to Ron and Hermione.
I don't know what you're talking about with the magic, when I said magic, I meant the same magic that everyone in the Wizarding world (with the exception of Squibs and non-humans) have.
#29 - thephantur (10/28/2010) [-]
That's what I meant by magic. Harry's new powers defy everything the wizarding world knew at the time and constantly shifted and changed. It was irrational. Now if Harry used the same magic as everyone else, had the same powers, and had to duel his way out of situations, I think that would be much more interesting and "realistic".
#32 - raibean (10/28/2010) [-]
What new powers? I have no idea what you're talking about. You obviously DIDN'T mean what I meant when I said magic, because, like I said, I meant what everyone else does. I don't see what Harry has that everyone else DOESN'T, with the exception of seeing into Voldemort's mind, which is a plot device.
#37 - thephantur (10/28/2010) [-]
This is what I hate about not being able to put my thoughts into writing...
Okay. Harry has the same powers as everyone else. Right?
Now... He can't be touched by Voldy... that wasn't known in the Wizarding world. New Power.
He survived the killing curse... arguably, love is "old magic" but no one else has ever been affected by it so I still say New Power.
Time Travel. While not tech. a new power, it has never been used before. Like, why couldn't they travel back in time and stop Dumbledore from dieing or whatever?
Ghosts appearing from wand. Never seen before by the wizarding world. New Power.
I don't think I did a good job explaining that...
#44 - raibean (10/28/2010) [-]
That's not a "new" power. Rare, but not new, and not something Dumbledore had to guess at. It was ancient magic, and great symbolism. It's part of the same old magic that kept him alive. That's why it's revisited in the 7th book.
It HAS been used before, or Hermione wouldn't have gotten one for her classes all year. (And if it had been used, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference in history.) In the 6th book, they say that the Ministry has control of them all, and they destroyed the Time Turners, which is WHY they can't travel back in time.
#47 - thephantur (10/28/2010) [-]
Okay I concede on the Time traveling. Completely forgot about them destroying it in the 5th? book.
Some of it is new because it wasn't mentioned until afterwards. I know it's nigh on impossible to mention this beforehand without giving it away, but it gives the feel (don't know a better word for it) of it being "new".
Now, if I were the author, I would rectify this by either making at least one of the characters die or making it so that they didn't count out unscathed everytime.
#51 - raibean (10/28/2010) [-]
They don't come out unscathed most of the time, but I get your point. (Shit, Hermione gets TORTURED in the last one and Ron's brother dies - which counts emotionally.)
As for afterwards explanations, well, it is a kid's book, so they have to understand, but afterwards vs. beforehand, well, that's just larger foreshadowing, isn't it?
#45 - raibean (10/28/2010) [-]
Another thing is that they're not honestly ghosts (the wand bit, not the Hallows) and that it's not a new power, it's a part of the Priori Incantatem, which can be done between any two wands, though it only goes past a single spell when the two wands are brothers. Not a new power, perfectly recreatable with any pair of wands that share a core.
#12 - thephantur (10/28/2010) [-]
Book 1: No help. Faced by Bald dude in Turban. Finds out he can't be touched. Wins.
2: Bird comes and saves him and a magic sword appears. Wait! He's mortally wounded. What do? Saved by a bird.
3: God father going to die? Time travel!
4: Ghosts appear out his wand and save him...
I would go on, but I have other arguments. Stick with me.
#23 - raibean (10/28/2010) [-]
1. Actually, he WAS helped. By his friends. One of HP's motifs is that he can't get through without outside help. This actually goes against cliche.
2. This, in a way, is foreshadowing. While the commonality of this is debatable, it again stresses that Harry can't do it by himself.
3. These things aren't appearing suddenly at the end, they show up throughout the book. It also helps build Dumbledore's character and evens out who's helping Harry when.
#14 - thephantur (10/28/2010) [-]
I don't wish to sound morbid, but, I like it when a main character dies. Do you know how much it pleased me when Dumbledore died? Greatly. It gives it a twist that doesn't make it seem like the hero is overpowered or something undefeatable. I loved that. But, believe it or not, everyone who died in that book wasn't a main character. They were side characters. None of the big three, Harry, Hermoine, or Rob died. They all got saved by something unheard of at the last second.
#24 - raibean (10/28/2010) [-]
Harry actually did die - he just came back to life as well. Another thing I'd like to say is that Dumbledore dying was a shock, but not a twist. It's actually a part of the hero cycle. The hero's mentor/trainer dies, though sometimes coming back, leaving the hero to embark on his journey alone.
#28 - thephantur (10/28/2010) [-]
Die as in gone forever. A new power "saves" him. When I heard he died, I was ready to take back much of what I said... up until I read about his coming back to life.
And that's why I like it. They're on their own and have to live and think for themselves. They have to work to survive... not have some new power to save them each time.
#34 - thephantur (10/28/2010) [-]
Being able to predict what's to come is exactly what I hate. It means the plot is too simple. I want twists. Keep me on the edge of my seat instead of making me guess most of what is to come.
I hate the cycle as a whole but like a few things in it. Um... let's see if I have an analogy...
Oh... let's say you hate banana bread but you love bananas. You have to have bananas and whatever you use to make bread in order to have the banana bread. You like a "step" of it, but you don't like the whole.
Yeah... analogies aren't my strong point...
#38 - raibean (10/28/2010) [-]
That's actually a pretty good analogy.
The problem with not including build up and foreshadowing is that actually IS poor writing. It's just finding the right amount of build up so people, upon rereading, can see that it's there, but during the first time around, will be like OMG WTF. As for the foreshadowing, most kids aren't as good at it. Personally, I feel like you have to take the intended audience into account for these things, sort of like the difference between an essay about global warming for the general public and one for the scientific community.
#41 - thephantur (10/28/2010) [-]
I don't think you understood what I meant by that. Foreshadowing is great. Just don't foreshadow everything. Put enough into it to make the reader guess, but don't make it so that I can guess the next whole book(s). Don't think this came out right so ask if I didn't explain it right.
That's the problem here. My expectations have grown too much. I rarely am satisfied now by a novel and find myself rereading books I have already read just to quench my thirst for fantasy... which is why I have given up on New York Times Bestseller for the most part.
#48 - raibean (10/28/2010) [-]
No, I did, that's exactly what I said with the "right amount." It's a children's book, the "right amount" is going to be completely different than if you're writing a la Jacqueline Carey. What Rowling does instead of cutting down on foreshadowing is she spreads it out so far apart that you're supposed to forget about it by the time it comes around (at least for the larger arches).
#50 - thephantur (10/28/2010) [-]
We come back full circle. :/ I'm not used to reading books written for the general crowd. If you asked me a few years back, I would have placed HP near the top in terms of literary excellence. Now? I won't.
I believe this is the end of our chat. Nice talking to you! :D
#53 - raibean (10/28/2010) [-]
Yes, it was nice to talk to you, even if we disagree and you're a bit rusty on HP (how can I expect you to be up to scratch with something you no longer enjoy? lol), it's clear that you appreciate literature and can be civilized, unlike some people on here.
The only thing I generally dislike in all the books is the British/American translator. After the 2nd or 3rd book, they get a new one who sucks and forgets to change "jumper" to "sweater" and change grammar and spelling. That's just unprofessional right there.
#26 - raibean (10/28/2010) [-]
Vivid imagery isn't a trait of children's books. Also, have you seen those books? They're huge! Any sort of consistently vivid imagery (the books do have a consistent amount of description and occasionally has vivid imagery) would be edited out, if it was there to begin with.
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