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mapleknight    

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mapleknight Avatar Level 212 Comments: Comedic Genius
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Date Signed Up:7/06/2012
Last Login:7/24/2014
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Comment Ranking:#7379
Highest Content Rank:#7373
Highest Comment Rank:#3081
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latest user's comments

#7974911 - ok 03/02/2014 on retard forum 0
#214459 - Blame them, not me. 03/01/2014 on Hating - file complaints,... 0
#31 - They say Jesus walked on water. This? This is too far. 03/01/2014 on LEGO keeps amazing me +1
#214387 - I have thumbed thee, my lord. Let us ascend to the realm o… 03/01/2014 on Hating - file complaints,... +1
#214384 - We've gotta stick together, friend.  [+] (2 new replies) 03/01/2014 on Hating - file complaints,... +1
User avatar #214385 - averagewhitekid (03/01/2014) [-]
User avatar #214387 - mapleknight (03/01/2014) [-]
I have thumbed thee, my lord.
Let us ascend to the realm of the Connors.
#214380 - I'm aware it's not perfect, but the aspect isn't shit. Let…  [+] (1 new reply) 03/01/2014 on Hating - file complaints,... 0
User avatar #214382 - thebestpieever (03/01/2014) [-]
Yes, beowulf is a shit character. His legend is still good and one that I enjoy thoroughly, why? Because it's got and interesting mythology and the events of it are interesting. Beowulf himself is great but boring. Because Beowulf will never do something you don't expect, he's too good. Beowulf, as a character, is shit. But the Beowulf poem, at it's core, is about this great man. Which is entertaining because you get a sense of this god amongst men and the feelings he evokes in others as he shapes the world in his wake. Which is in itself grandiose and sprawling.

At his core Beowulf is more of an icon and a plot device than character. Beowulf himself is a shit character but a great icon. So yeah, Beowulf has shit characters, but the world and iconography it presents is interesting and grandiose, therefore, I like it despite it's characters being boring. Because I like it's world.

TL;DR: Beowulf as a character is shit and a Mary Sue. As an Icon he is excellent because the world around him lends itself to create a great, iconic hero.
#214378 - It's hard to describe. The idea that he's the "greatest g… 03/01/2014 on Hating - file complaints,... 0
#214374 - I mean, we all know he's going to live, it's just figuring out…  [+] (3 new replies) 03/01/2014 on Hating - file complaints,... 0
User avatar #214377 - thebestpieever (03/01/2014) [-]
And bingo. You've arrived at the conclusion. That aspect of it is shit, but, you can enjoy it because there are other things that make up for it. You see? It isn't hard to accept that what you like isn't perfect.
User avatar #214380 - mapleknight (03/01/2014) [-]
I'm aware it's not perfect, but the aspect isn't shit.
Let's look at Beowulf. We know he's exceptional, he is extremely strong and cunning. Do we hate him for this?
Is he shit for this? Is he a Mary Sue for this? By your logic the fact that he is strong and cunning makes the aspect of the story shit because he's better than everyone else at something.
User avatar #214382 - thebestpieever (03/01/2014) [-]
Yes, beowulf is a shit character. His legend is still good and one that I enjoy thoroughly, why? Because it's got and interesting mythology and the events of it are interesting. Beowulf himself is great but boring. Because Beowulf will never do something you don't expect, he's too good. Beowulf, as a character, is shit. But the Beowulf poem, at it's core, is about this great man. Which is entertaining because you get a sense of this god amongst men and the feelings he evokes in others as he shapes the world in his wake. Which is in itself grandiose and sprawling.

At his core Beowulf is more of an icon and a plot device than character. Beowulf himself is a shit character but a great icon. So yeah, Beowulf has shit characters, but the world and iconography it presents is interesting and grandiose, therefore, I like it despite it's characters being boring. Because I like it's world.

TL;DR: Beowulf as a character is shit and a Mary Sue. As an Icon he is excellent because the world around him lends itself to create a great, iconic hero.
#214372 - He's RETELLING the story. He's also not better than any challe…  [+] (6 new replies) 03/01/2014 on Hating - file complaints,... 0
User avatar #214376 - thebestpieever (03/01/2014) [-]
I'm going off what you tell me. You say "The whole point of the story is for him to win because he's better than anyone". To which I retort, then there's no point in seeing the story. Now you say he's not the best, OK, then that's not the point of the story and you're shit at literary analysis. But I digress.

A story is about trials and tribulations, not the final result. That's why there's tragedy, comedy, slice of life. Dorian Gray is all about Dorian failing miserably to face the central conflict to the point where the last option remaining is to take his own life. If a character can't fail, never fails, then there is no point to a story. It doesn't matter if he always has to "push himself to the limit" he still always wins. That's storytelling 101, even Dragon Ball kind of got that, what with them killing the main character twice. Of course, that had another huge badge of problems, but at the end of the day they got the central conceit: The test has to take something from you. If the characters don't change, evolve, give something they were up in a fundamental level, then it doesn't matter.
User avatar #214378 - mapleknight (03/01/2014) [-]
It's hard to describe. The idea that he's the "greatest godlike person on earth whose power rivals god" isn't in the story, but he's overpowered. He's not better than everyone else, but he's exceptional. That's what I mean, there. It's fucking stupid that people would imply he's a mary sue, is what i'm saying.
There ARE trials and tribulations, that IS the point of the story. This is just difficult for me to communicate. We all know that he'll live, and we all know very vaguely what happens at the end but not entirely. It's kind of hard for me to communicate this because I just woke up and I'm really fucking irritated
User avatar #214374 - mapleknight (03/01/2014) [-]
I mean, we all know he's going to live, it's just figuring out the plot. The plot and writing in this series are fantastic.
The fact that knowing a hero will somehow turn out victorious in the end (his life is actually completely destroyed and he becomes a figure of legend at the end, but we haven't got there yet!) doesn't mean you can't enjoy something
User avatar #214377 - thebestpieever (03/01/2014) [-]
And bingo. You've arrived at the conclusion. That aspect of it is shit, but, you can enjoy it because there are other things that make up for it. You see? It isn't hard to accept that what you like isn't perfect.
User avatar #214380 - mapleknight (03/01/2014) [-]
I'm aware it's not perfect, but the aspect isn't shit.
Let's look at Beowulf. We know he's exceptional, he is extremely strong and cunning. Do we hate him for this?
Is he shit for this? Is he a Mary Sue for this? By your logic the fact that he is strong and cunning makes the aspect of the story shit because he's better than everyone else at something.
User avatar #214382 - thebestpieever (03/01/2014) [-]
Yes, beowulf is a shit character. His legend is still good and one that I enjoy thoroughly, why? Because it's got and interesting mythology and the events of it are interesting. Beowulf himself is great but boring. Because Beowulf will never do something you don't expect, he's too good. Beowulf, as a character, is shit. But the Beowulf poem, at it's core, is about this great man. Which is entertaining because you get a sense of this god amongst men and the feelings he evokes in others as he shapes the world in his wake. Which is in itself grandiose and sprawling.

At his core Beowulf is more of an icon and a plot device than character. Beowulf himself is a shit character but a great icon. So yeah, Beowulf has shit characters, but the world and iconography it presents is interesting and grandiose, therefore, I like it despite it's characters being boring. Because I like it's world.

TL;DR: Beowulf as a character is shit and a Mary Sue. As an Icon he is excellent because the world around him lends itself to create a great, iconic hero.
#214366 - Shit son. There's other people in the world with this name?  [+] (4 new replies) 03/01/2014 on Hating - file complaints,... 0
User avatar #214383 - averagewhitekid (03/01/2014) [-]
No
Just you and I
User avatar #214384 - mapleknight (03/01/2014) [-]
We've gotta stick together, friend.
User avatar #214385 - averagewhitekid (03/01/2014) [-]
User avatar #214387 - mapleknight (03/01/2014) [-]
I have thumbed thee, my lord.
Let us ascend to the realm of the Connors.
#214360 - That was generally the original point, you just throw yourself… 03/01/2014 on Hating - file complaints,... 0
#214358 - You're right, but keep in mind this character isn't super grim…  [+] (8 new replies) 03/01/2014 on Hating - file complaints,... 0
User avatar #214367 - thebestpieever (03/01/2014) [-]
That still seems very boring. If the point of the story is that he's better than any challenger he may face, then what's the point? After all, we already know he's better, so you may just scribble in a page "He started being better and ended the same; the end"
User avatar #214372 - mapleknight (03/01/2014) [-]
He's RETELLING the story. He's also not better than any challenger he faces, he's just better than most people at very many skills. And, yeah, he does win a lot but that's kind of the point of the main character, to become victorious.
Otherwise, his main problem, I suppose, is largely paranormal / supernatural / what-the-fuck-ever and even someone with exceptional skill in many things (great thinker, good fighter [although i suppose he's not a great fighter, he's just better than most, there is an entire country of people better] and good magician) is gonna have problems with a team of super-demons who kill anyone who tries to learn more about them which is exactly what he's doing
User avatar #214376 - thebestpieever (03/01/2014) [-]
I'm going off what you tell me. You say "The whole point of the story is for him to win because he's better than anyone". To which I retort, then there's no point in seeing the story. Now you say he's not the best, OK, then that's not the point of the story and you're shit at literary analysis. But I digress.

A story is about trials and tribulations, not the final result. That's why there's tragedy, comedy, slice of life. Dorian Gray is all about Dorian failing miserably to face the central conflict to the point where the last option remaining is to take his own life. If a character can't fail, never fails, then there is no point to a story. It doesn't matter if he always has to "push himself to the limit" he still always wins. That's storytelling 101, even Dragon Ball kind of got that, what with them killing the main character twice. Of course, that had another huge badge of problems, but at the end of the day they got the central conceit: The test has to take something from you. If the characters don't change, evolve, give something they were up in a fundamental level, then it doesn't matter.
User avatar #214378 - mapleknight (03/01/2014) [-]
It's hard to describe. The idea that he's the "greatest godlike person on earth whose power rivals god" isn't in the story, but he's overpowered. He's not better than everyone else, but he's exceptional. That's what I mean, there. It's fucking stupid that people would imply he's a mary sue, is what i'm saying.
There ARE trials and tribulations, that IS the point of the story. This is just difficult for me to communicate. We all know that he'll live, and we all know very vaguely what happens at the end but not entirely. It's kind of hard for me to communicate this because I just woke up and I'm really fucking irritated
User avatar #214374 - mapleknight (03/01/2014) [-]
I mean, we all know he's going to live, it's just figuring out the plot. The plot and writing in this series are fantastic.
The fact that knowing a hero will somehow turn out victorious in the end (his life is actually completely destroyed and he becomes a figure of legend at the end, but we haven't got there yet!) doesn't mean you can't enjoy something
User avatar #214377 - thebestpieever (03/01/2014) [-]
And bingo. You've arrived at the conclusion. That aspect of it is shit, but, you can enjoy it because there are other things that make up for it. You see? It isn't hard to accept that what you like isn't perfect.
User avatar #214380 - mapleknight (03/01/2014) [-]
I'm aware it's not perfect, but the aspect isn't shit.
Let's look at Beowulf. We know he's exceptional, he is extremely strong and cunning. Do we hate him for this?
Is he shit for this? Is he a Mary Sue for this? By your logic the fact that he is strong and cunning makes the aspect of the story shit because he's better than everyone else at something.
User avatar #214382 - thebestpieever (03/01/2014) [-]
Yes, beowulf is a shit character. His legend is still good and one that I enjoy thoroughly, why? Because it's got and interesting mythology and the events of it are interesting. Beowulf himself is great but boring. Because Beowulf will never do something you don't expect, he's too good. Beowulf, as a character, is shit. But the Beowulf poem, at it's core, is about this great man. Which is entertaining because you get a sense of this god amongst men and the feelings he evokes in others as he shapes the world in his wake. Which is in itself grandiose and sprawling.

At his core Beowulf is more of an icon and a plot device than character. Beowulf himself is a shit character but a great icon. So yeah, Beowulf has shit characters, but the world and iconography it presents is interesting and grandiose, therefore, I like it despite it's characters being boring. Because I like it's world.

TL;DR: Beowulf as a character is shit and a Mary Sue. As an Icon he is excellent because the world around him lends itself to create a great, iconic hero.
#214356 - That's kind of my point. People scream Mary Sue whenever someb… 03/01/2014 on Hating - file complaints,... 0
#214353 - are "them damn libruls taking our guns away and givin em … 03/01/2014 on Hating - file complaints,... -1
#214350 - detailed above 03/01/2014 on Hating - file complaints,... 0
#214349 - That is not a Mary Sue. That is an awful plot with awful writing.  [+] (2 new replies) 03/01/2014 on Hating - file complaints,... 0
User avatar #214352 - leonhardt (03/01/2014) [-]
That is exactly what a Mary Sue is.

I feel like people just use the term nowadays to insult a character they don't like for whatever reason, regardless of them actually being a Mary Sue.
User avatar #214356 - mapleknight (03/01/2014) [-]
That's kind of my point. People scream Mary Sue whenever somebody's good at something. It pisses me off and misconstrues the meaning.
It used to mean putting yourself in a story with a few "advancements" (making yourself nearly god-like)
but now people use it like it means any somewhat over-powered character ever, and that's how I'm using it here because the term is convenient
#214348 - What do you mean? The series is basically him retelling h…  [+] (10 new replies) 03/01/2014 on Hating - file complaints,... 0
User avatar #214355 - thebestpieever (03/01/2014) [-]
MMMMHMMM. You know who also has a legend? Achilles. And Achilles wasn't perfect, he was the greatest warrior the world has seen. But he was also a man barely in control of his emotions. His ego got the better of him and his rage was his downfall. You don't have to be perfect in order to be great; that's boring.

You say "that's the point, he's supposed to be a Mary Sue" and I say, if I made a cake with bleach instead of milk it doesn't matter if the point is for it to be toxic. It's still a fucking cake full of bleach. The flaws are still flaws, whether it's intentional or not. You can appreciate it, perhaps, but at the end of the day no one's is wrong if they say it's a shitty cake.
User avatar #214358 - mapleknight (03/01/2014) [-]
You're right, but keep in mind this character isn't super grimdark 2cool over-powered godlike man
he's just an exceptional fighter, thinker, and practitioner of magic and people scream OMG MARY SUE
because he's better than everyone else. I'm using that term that way here even though it bothers me, because it's convenient.
That's kind of the point, he's an exceptional person with actual real problems, good writing, and with a good (although semi-cliche) plot.
People shouldn't use the term mary sue for this character, even if he is super fucking good at being super fucking good at many things. He does have flaws but every idiot overlooks them and screams "MARY SUE" even though the point is that he's better.
User avatar #214367 - thebestpieever (03/01/2014) [-]
That still seems very boring. If the point of the story is that he's better than any challenger he may face, then what's the point? After all, we already know he's better, so you may just scribble in a page "He started being better and ended the same; the end"
User avatar #214372 - mapleknight (03/01/2014) [-]
He's RETELLING the story. He's also not better than any challenger he faces, he's just better than most people at very many skills. And, yeah, he does win a lot but that's kind of the point of the main character, to become victorious.
Otherwise, his main problem, I suppose, is largely paranormal / supernatural / what-the-fuck-ever and even someone with exceptional skill in many things (great thinker, good fighter [although i suppose he's not a great fighter, he's just better than most, there is an entire country of people better] and good magician) is gonna have problems with a team of super-demons who kill anyone who tries to learn more about them which is exactly what he's doing
User avatar #214376 - thebestpieever (03/01/2014) [-]
I'm going off what you tell me. You say "The whole point of the story is for him to win because he's better than anyone". To which I retort, then there's no point in seeing the story. Now you say he's not the best, OK, then that's not the point of the story and you're shit at literary analysis. But I digress.

A story is about trials and tribulations, not the final result. That's why there's tragedy, comedy, slice of life. Dorian Gray is all about Dorian failing miserably to face the central conflict to the point where the last option remaining is to take his own life. If a character can't fail, never fails, then there is no point to a story. It doesn't matter if he always has to "push himself to the limit" he still always wins. That's storytelling 101, even Dragon Ball kind of got that, what with them killing the main character twice. Of course, that had another huge badge of problems, but at the end of the day they got the central conceit: The test has to take something from you. If the characters don't change, evolve, give something they were up in a fundamental level, then it doesn't matter.
User avatar #214378 - mapleknight (03/01/2014) [-]
It's hard to describe. The idea that he's the "greatest godlike person on earth whose power rivals god" isn't in the story, but he's overpowered. He's not better than everyone else, but he's exceptional. That's what I mean, there. It's fucking stupid that people would imply he's a mary sue, is what i'm saying.
There ARE trials and tribulations, that IS the point of the story. This is just difficult for me to communicate. We all know that he'll live, and we all know very vaguely what happens at the end but not entirely. It's kind of hard for me to communicate this because I just woke up and I'm really fucking irritated
User avatar #214374 - mapleknight (03/01/2014) [-]
I mean, we all know he's going to live, it's just figuring out the plot. The plot and writing in this series are fantastic.
The fact that knowing a hero will somehow turn out victorious in the end (his life is actually completely destroyed and he becomes a figure of legend at the end, but we haven't got there yet!) doesn't mean you can't enjoy something
User avatar #214377 - thebestpieever (03/01/2014) [-]
And bingo. You've arrived at the conclusion. That aspect of it is shit, but, you can enjoy it because there are other things that make up for it. You see? It isn't hard to accept that what you like isn't perfect.
User avatar #214380 - mapleknight (03/01/2014) [-]
I'm aware it's not perfect, but the aspect isn't shit.
Let's look at Beowulf. We know he's exceptional, he is extremely strong and cunning. Do we hate him for this?
Is he shit for this? Is he a Mary Sue for this? By your logic the fact that he is strong and cunning makes the aspect of the story shit because he's better than everyone else at something.
User avatar #214382 - thebestpieever (03/01/2014) [-]
Yes, beowulf is a shit character. His legend is still good and one that I enjoy thoroughly, why? Because it's got and interesting mythology and the events of it are interesting. Beowulf himself is great but boring. Because Beowulf will never do something you don't expect, he's too good. Beowulf, as a character, is shit. But the Beowulf poem, at it's core, is about this great man. Which is entertaining because you get a sense of this god amongst men and the feelings he evokes in others as he shapes the world in his wake. Which is in itself grandiose and sprawling.

At his core Beowulf is more of an icon and a plot device than character. Beowulf himself is a shit character but a great icon. So yeah, Beowulf has shit characters, but the world and iconography it presents is interesting and grandiose, therefore, I like it despite it's characters being boring. Because I like it's world.

TL;DR: Beowulf as a character is shit and a Mary Sue. As an Icon he is excellent because the world around him lends itself to create a great, iconic hero.
#214346 - But then what's the point? Why read it if they're NOT a super …  [+] (5 new replies) 03/01/2014 on Hating - file complaints,... 0
#214394 - anonymous (03/01/2014) [-]
We don't need heros that win easily nor do they need any great amount of powers. Its not uncommon to see a protagonist without insane powers.
User avatar #214347 - leonhardt (03/01/2014) [-]
What's the point of reading if they constantly win without any challenge?
User avatar #214349 - mapleknight (03/01/2014) [-]
That is not a Mary Sue. That is an awful plot with awful writing.
User avatar #214352 - leonhardt (03/01/2014) [-]
That is exactly what a Mary Sue is.

I feel like people just use the term nowadays to insult a character they don't like for whatever reason, regardless of them actually being a Mary Sue.
User avatar #214356 - mapleknight (03/01/2014) [-]
That's kind of my point. People scream Mary Sue whenever somebody's good at something. It pisses me off and misconstrues the meaning.
It used to mean putting yourself in a story with a few "advancements" (making yourself nearly god-like)
but now people use it like it means any somewhat over-powered character ever, and that's how I'm using it here because the term is convenient
#214339 - The character that brought this on was Kvothe from the Kingkil…  [+] (12 new replies) 03/01/2014 on Hating - file complaints,... 0
User avatar #214341 - thebestpieever (03/01/2014) [-]
Well, that's a valid point you bring up.
But one must not forget that intentionally bad is still bad.
If you can get past that flaw, good for you, but other people aren't in the wrong for calling it out.
User avatar #214348 - mapleknight (03/01/2014) [-]
What do you mean?
The series is basically him retelling his view of how good he at least used to be. It makes sense, because why would you write someone or put them in a legend if they weren't exceptional compared to everyone else?
But, I'm not sure what you mean "intentionally bad is still bad."
User avatar #214355 - thebestpieever (03/01/2014) [-]
MMMMHMMM. You know who also has a legend? Achilles. And Achilles wasn't perfect, he was the greatest warrior the world has seen. But he was also a man barely in control of his emotions. His ego got the better of him and his rage was his downfall. You don't have to be perfect in order to be great; that's boring.

You say "that's the point, he's supposed to be a Mary Sue" and I say, if I made a cake with bleach instead of milk it doesn't matter if the point is for it to be toxic. It's still a fucking cake full of bleach. The flaws are still flaws, whether it's intentional or not. You can appreciate it, perhaps, but at the end of the day no one's is wrong if they say it's a shitty cake.
User avatar #214358 - mapleknight (03/01/2014) [-]
You're right, but keep in mind this character isn't super grimdark 2cool over-powered godlike man
he's just an exceptional fighter, thinker, and practitioner of magic and people scream OMG MARY SUE
because he's better than everyone else. I'm using that term that way here even though it bothers me, because it's convenient.
That's kind of the point, he's an exceptional person with actual real problems, good writing, and with a good (although semi-cliche) plot.
People shouldn't use the term mary sue for this character, even if he is super fucking good at being super fucking good at many things. He does have flaws but every idiot overlooks them and screams "MARY SUE" even though the point is that he's better.
User avatar #214367 - thebestpieever (03/01/2014) [-]
That still seems very boring. If the point of the story is that he's better than any challenger he may face, then what's the point? After all, we already know he's better, so you may just scribble in a page "He started being better and ended the same; the end"
User avatar #214372 - mapleknight (03/01/2014) [-]
He's RETELLING the story. He's also not better than any challenger he faces, he's just better than most people at very many skills. And, yeah, he does win a lot but that's kind of the point of the main character, to become victorious.
Otherwise, his main problem, I suppose, is largely paranormal / supernatural / what-the-fuck-ever and even someone with exceptional skill in many things (great thinker, good fighter [although i suppose he's not a great fighter, he's just better than most, there is an entire country of people better] and good magician) is gonna have problems with a team of super-demons who kill anyone who tries to learn more about them which is exactly what he's doing
User avatar #214376 - thebestpieever (03/01/2014) [-]
I'm going off what you tell me. You say "The whole point of the story is for him to win because he's better than anyone". To which I retort, then there's no point in seeing the story. Now you say he's not the best, OK, then that's not the point of the story and you're shit at literary analysis. But I digress.

A story is about trials and tribulations, not the final result. That's why there's tragedy, comedy, slice of life. Dorian Gray is all about Dorian failing miserably to face the central conflict to the point where the last option remaining is to take his own life. If a character can't fail, never fails, then there is no point to a story. It doesn't matter if he always has to "push himself to the limit" he still always wins. That's storytelling 101, even Dragon Ball kind of got that, what with them killing the main character twice. Of course, that had another huge badge of problems, but at the end of the day they got the central conceit: The test has to take something from you. If the characters don't change, evolve, give something they were up in a fundamental level, then it doesn't matter.
User avatar #214378 - mapleknight (03/01/2014) [-]
It's hard to describe. The idea that he's the "greatest godlike person on earth whose power rivals god" isn't in the story, but he's overpowered. He's not better than everyone else, but he's exceptional. That's what I mean, there. It's fucking stupid that people would imply he's a mary sue, is what i'm saying.
There ARE trials and tribulations, that IS the point of the story. This is just difficult for me to communicate. We all know that he'll live, and we all know very vaguely what happens at the end but not entirely. It's kind of hard for me to communicate this because I just woke up and I'm really fucking irritated
User avatar #214374 - mapleknight (03/01/2014) [-]
I mean, we all know he's going to live, it's just figuring out the plot. The plot and writing in this series are fantastic.
The fact that knowing a hero will somehow turn out victorious in the end (his life is actually completely destroyed and he becomes a figure of legend at the end, but we haven't got there yet!) doesn't mean you can't enjoy something
User avatar #214377 - thebestpieever (03/01/2014) [-]
And bingo. You've arrived at the conclusion. That aspect of it is shit, but, you can enjoy it because there are other things that make up for it. You see? It isn't hard to accept that what you like isn't perfect.
User avatar #214380 - mapleknight (03/01/2014) [-]
I'm aware it's not perfect, but the aspect isn't shit.
Let's look at Beowulf. We know he's exceptional, he is extremely strong and cunning. Do we hate him for this?
Is he shit for this? Is he a Mary Sue for this? By your logic the fact that he is strong and cunning makes the aspect of the story shit because he's better than everyone else at something.
User avatar #214382 - thebestpieever (03/01/2014) [-]
Yes, beowulf is a shit character. His legend is still good and one that I enjoy thoroughly, why? Because it's got and interesting mythology and the events of it are interesting. Beowulf himself is great but boring. Because Beowulf will never do something you don't expect, he's too good. Beowulf, as a character, is shit. But the Beowulf poem, at it's core, is about this great man. Which is entertaining because you get a sense of this god amongst men and the feelings he evokes in others as he shapes the world in his wake. Which is in itself grandiose and sprawling.

At his core Beowulf is more of an icon and a plot device than character. Beowulf himself is a shit character but a great icon. So yeah, Beowulf has shit characters, but the world and iconography it presents is interesting and grandiose, therefore, I like it despite it's characters being boring. Because I like it's world.

TL;DR: Beowulf as a character is shit and a Mary Sue. As an Icon he is excellent because the world around him lends itself to create a great, iconic hero.
#214335 - lel nah, when I write I only share it among a group of peo…  [+] (3 new replies) 03/01/2014 on Hating - file complaints,... 0
User avatar #214343 - leonhardt (03/01/2014) [-]
Which character are we talking about.
#214351 - anonymous (03/01/2014) [-]
Sonic
User avatar #214350 - mapleknight (03/01/2014) [-]
detailed above
#214332 - People over-use the term Mary Sue though. The story is SUPPOSE…  [+] (7 new replies) 03/01/2014 on Hating - file complaints,... 0
User avatar #214342 - leonhardt (03/01/2014) [-]
They really don't.

Good characters are rarely overpowered. A good story doesn't tell us how badass they are, but why they're badass.

It all depends on the writer, really. A good writer doesn't write Mary Sues. A good writer can write a good story without his character being a super special snowflake.
User avatar #214346 - mapleknight (03/01/2014) [-]
But then what's the point? Why read it if they're NOT a super special snowflake? What divides them from everyone else? That's why we need at least somewhat overpowered characters, or with a skill that is unnaturally better than at least most people. Because if not, what's the point of even reading? Again, there's no fun in reading about a normal person with a normal life.
#214394 - anonymous (03/01/2014) [-]
We don't need heros that win easily nor do they need any great amount of powers. Its not uncommon to see a protagonist without insane powers.
User avatar #214347 - leonhardt (03/01/2014) [-]
What's the point of reading if they constantly win without any challenge?
User avatar #214349 - mapleknight (03/01/2014) [-]
That is not a Mary Sue. That is an awful plot with awful writing.
User avatar #214352 - leonhardt (03/01/2014) [-]
That is exactly what a Mary Sue is.

I feel like people just use the term nowadays to insult a character they don't like for whatever reason, regardless of them actually being a Mary Sue.
User avatar #214356 - mapleknight (03/01/2014) [-]
That's kind of my point. People scream Mary Sue whenever somebody's good at something. It pisses me off and misconstrues the meaning.
It used to mean putting yourself in a story with a few "advancements" (making yourself nearly god-like)
but now people use it like it means any somewhat over-powered character ever, and that's how I'm using it here because the term is convenient
#214329 - That doesn't really tie into mary sues, though. I mean, the st…  [+] (19 new replies) 03/01/2014 on Hating - file complaints,... 0
User avatar #214334 - thebestpieever (03/01/2014) [-]
Well, then, that's different ain't it?
There's a difference between Sherlock Holmes: who is an extremely brilliant man but emotionally crippled, addicted to substances and needs to be on an adventure to function properly.
And Legolas: Who is perfect in absolutely every way ever imagined save for his hatred of dwarfs.

It's also how you use them. You can't make them the protagonist, but you can have them in your story, like Diomedes in the Illiad.
User avatar #214339 - mapleknight (03/01/2014) [-]
The character that brought this on was Kvothe from the Kingkiller Chronicles series. This is my favorite series and, of course, the main character. The literal point of the series is Kvothe retelling his story to a writer with some little bits of unreliable narrator sprinkled in. People argue he's a Mary Sue, and in all honesty he kind of is except for a few somewhat minute flaws, and it upsets me because that's literally the point of the series. Him explaining the fact that he is a Mary Sue.
User avatar #214341 - thebestpieever (03/01/2014) [-]
Well, that's a valid point you bring up.
But one must not forget that intentionally bad is still bad.
If you can get past that flaw, good for you, but other people aren't in the wrong for calling it out.
User avatar #214348 - mapleknight (03/01/2014) [-]
What do you mean?
The series is basically him retelling his view of how good he at least used to be. It makes sense, because why would you write someone or put them in a legend if they weren't exceptional compared to everyone else?
But, I'm not sure what you mean "intentionally bad is still bad."
User avatar #214355 - thebestpieever (03/01/2014) [-]
MMMMHMMM. You know who also has a legend? Achilles. And Achilles wasn't perfect, he was the greatest warrior the world has seen. But he was also a man barely in control of his emotions. His ego got the better of him and his rage was his downfall. You don't have to be perfect in order to be great; that's boring.

You say "that's the point, he's supposed to be a Mary Sue" and I say, if I made a cake with bleach instead of milk it doesn't matter if the point is for it to be toxic. It's still a fucking cake full of bleach. The flaws are still flaws, whether it's intentional or not. You can appreciate it, perhaps, but at the end of the day no one's is wrong if they say it's a shitty cake.
User avatar #214358 - mapleknight (03/01/2014) [-]
You're right, but keep in mind this character isn't super grimdark 2cool over-powered godlike man
he's just an exceptional fighter, thinker, and practitioner of magic and people scream OMG MARY SUE
because he's better than everyone else. I'm using that term that way here even though it bothers me, because it's convenient.
That's kind of the point, he's an exceptional person with actual real problems, good writing, and with a good (although semi-cliche) plot.
People shouldn't use the term mary sue for this character, even if he is super fucking good at being super fucking good at many things. He does have flaws but every idiot overlooks them and screams "MARY SUE" even though the point is that he's better.
User avatar #214367 - thebestpieever (03/01/2014) [-]
That still seems very boring. If the point of the story is that he's better than any challenger he may face, then what's the point? After all, we already know he's better, so you may just scribble in a page "He started being better and ended the same; the end"
User avatar #214372 - mapleknight (03/01/2014) [-]
He's RETELLING the story. He's also not better than any challenger he faces, he's just better than most people at very many skills. And, yeah, he does win a lot but that's kind of the point of the main character, to become victorious.
Otherwise, his main problem, I suppose, is largely paranormal / supernatural / what-the-fuck-ever and even someone with exceptional skill in many things (great thinker, good fighter [although i suppose he's not a great fighter, he's just better than most, there is an entire country of people better] and good magician) is gonna have problems with a team of super-demons who kill anyone who tries to learn more about them which is exactly what he's doing
User avatar #214376 - thebestpieever (03/01/2014) [-]
I'm going off what you tell me. You say "The whole point of the story is for him to win because he's better than anyone". To which I retort, then there's no point in seeing the story. Now you say he's not the best, OK, then that's not the point of the story and you're shit at literary analysis. But I digress.

A story is about trials and tribulations, not the final result. That's why there's tragedy, comedy, slice of life. Dorian Gray is all about Dorian failing miserably to face the central conflict to the point where the last option remaining is to take his own life. If a character can't fail, never fails, then there is no point to a story. It doesn't matter if he always has to "push himself to the limit" he still always wins. That's storytelling 101, even Dragon Ball kind of got that, what with them killing the main character twice. Of course, that had another huge badge of problems, but at the end of the day they got the central conceit: The test has to take something from you. If the characters don't change, evolve, give something they were up in a fundamental level, then it doesn't matter.
User avatar #214378 - mapleknight (03/01/2014) [-]
It's hard to describe. The idea that he's the "greatest godlike person on earth whose power rivals god" isn't in the story, but he's overpowered. He's not better than everyone else, but he's exceptional. That's what I mean, there. It's fucking stupid that people would imply he's a mary sue, is what i'm saying.
There ARE trials and tribulations, that IS the point of the story. This is just difficult for me to communicate. We all know that he'll live, and we all know very vaguely what happens at the end but not entirely. It's kind of hard for me to communicate this because I just woke up and I'm really fucking irritated
User avatar #214374 - mapleknight (03/01/2014) [-]
I mean, we all know he's going to live, it's just figuring out the plot. The plot and writing in this series are fantastic.
The fact that knowing a hero will somehow turn out victorious in the end (his life is actually completely destroyed and he becomes a figure of legend at the end, but we haven't got there yet!) doesn't mean you can't enjoy something
User avatar #214377 - thebestpieever (03/01/2014) [-]
And bingo. You've arrived at the conclusion. That aspect of it is shit, but, you can enjoy it because there are other things that make up for it. You see? It isn't hard to accept that what you like isn't perfect.
User avatar #214380 - mapleknight (03/01/2014) [-]
I'm aware it's not perfect, but the aspect isn't shit.
Let's look at Beowulf. We know he's exceptional, he is extremely strong and cunning. Do we hate him for this?
Is he shit for this? Is he a Mary Sue for this? By your logic the fact that he is strong and cunning makes the aspect of the story shit because he's better than everyone else at something.
User avatar #214382 - thebestpieever (03/01/2014) [-]
Yes, beowulf is a shit character. His legend is still good and one that I enjoy thoroughly, why? Because it's got and interesting mythology and the events of it are interesting. Beowulf himself is great but boring. Because Beowulf will never do something you don't expect, he's too good. Beowulf, as a character, is shit. But the Beowulf poem, at it's core, is about this great man. Which is entertaining because you get a sense of this god amongst men and the feelings he evokes in others as he shapes the world in his wake. Which is in itself grandiose and sprawling.

At his core Beowulf is more of an icon and a plot device than character. Beowulf himself is a shit character but a great icon. So yeah, Beowulf has shit characters, but the world and iconography it presents is interesting and grandiose, therefore, I like it despite it's characters being boring. Because I like it's world.

TL;DR: Beowulf as a character is shit and a Mary Sue. As an Icon he is excellent because the world around him lends itself to create a great, iconic hero.
User avatar #214331 - leonhardt (03/01/2014) [-]
Did someone call your Original Character (Do not Steal) a Mary Sue?
User avatar #214335 - mapleknight (03/01/2014) [-]
lel
nah, when I write I only share it among a group of people. But, a lot of people claim one of my favorite characters in a series is a Mary Sue when that's literally the point of the series, and it generates mass butthurt from me
User avatar #214343 - leonhardt (03/01/2014) [-]
Which character are we talking about.
#214351 - anonymous (03/01/2014) [-]
Sonic
User avatar #214350 - mapleknight (03/01/2014) [-]
detailed above
#214317 - I hate people who whine about mary sues. Don't get me wron…  [+] (36 new replies) 03/01/2014 on Hating - file complaints,... 0
User avatar #214458 - dalokan (03/01/2014) [-]
I hate it when people don't know the Mary Sue tag is only valid for use if the work by itself is a fan fiction.
User avatar #214459 - mapleknight (03/01/2014) [-]
Blame them, not me.
User avatar #214440 - rokkarokkaali (03/01/2014) [-]
I wanna watch a tragic story about an average joe who gets fucked over again and again to the point of poverty where he kills himself.
User avatar #214457 - dalokan (03/01/2014) [-]
read The Jungle
User avatar #214357 - Shiny (03/01/2014) [-]
Having an avatar character is greatly different from Mary Sue writing.
User avatar #214360 - mapleknight (03/01/2014) [-]
That was generally the original point, you just throw yourself on in and add on some new features to make you better. But now it's so different that nobody's really sure what the fuck it means anymore and whenever there's a character that's exceptionally good at something, everyone screams MARY SUE and drops the story before giving it a chance
User avatar #214327 - leonhardt (03/01/2014) [-]
Yes it is. Having a legit Mary Sue main character is shit-tier writing.
User avatar #214332 - mapleknight (03/01/2014) [-]
People over-use the term Mary Sue though. The story is SUPPOSED to be about someone overpowered, a legend. That's why people would record this, that's why these people are thought of as special or powerful, because they're better than other people. That's a good character, and in my opinion the only acceptable one for a main character. What's the point in reading or watching a story about an average person completing average goals?
User avatar #214342 - leonhardt (03/01/2014) [-]
They really don't.

Good characters are rarely overpowered. A good story doesn't tell us how badass they are, but why they're badass.

It all depends on the writer, really. A good writer doesn't write Mary Sues. A good writer can write a good story without his character being a super special snowflake.
User avatar #214346 - mapleknight (03/01/2014) [-]
But then what's the point? Why read it if they're NOT a super special snowflake? What divides them from everyone else? That's why we need at least somewhat overpowered characters, or with a skill that is unnaturally better than at least most people. Because if not, what's the point of even reading? Again, there's no fun in reading about a normal person with a normal life.
#214394 - anonymous (03/01/2014) [-]
We don't need heros that win easily nor do they need any great amount of powers. Its not uncommon to see a protagonist without insane powers.
User avatar #214347 - leonhardt (03/01/2014) [-]
What's the point of reading if they constantly win without any challenge?
User avatar #214349 - mapleknight (03/01/2014) [-]
That is not a Mary Sue. That is an awful plot with awful writing.
User avatar #214352 - leonhardt (03/01/2014) [-]
That is exactly what a Mary Sue is.

I feel like people just use the term nowadays to insult a character they don't like for whatever reason, regardless of them actually being a Mary Sue.
User avatar #214356 - mapleknight (03/01/2014) [-]
That's kind of my point. People scream Mary Sue whenever somebody's good at something. It pisses me off and misconstrues the meaning.
It used to mean putting yourself in a story with a few "advancements" (making yourself nearly god-like)
but now people use it like it means any somewhat over-powered character ever, and that's how I'm using it here because the term is convenient
User avatar #214324 - thebestpieever (03/01/2014) [-]
We don't want to watch normal people. We want to watch interesting people. If the character is completely perfect then you might as well put up a sign that says "Everything is fine forever" and not bother with a story that doesn't test them or try them in the least.
User avatar #214329 - mapleknight (03/01/2014) [-]
That doesn't really tie into mary sues, though. I mean, the story and the writing can be perfectly fine with a somewhat "overpowered" character. I guess to rephrase, I don't think whenever there's a character beyond the normal limitations of a person that everyone should instantly scream "MARY SUE" and drop the book.
User avatar #214334 - thebestpieever (03/01/2014) [-]
Well, then, that's different ain't it?
There's a difference between Sherlock Holmes: who is an extremely brilliant man but emotionally crippled, addicted to substances and needs to be on an adventure to function properly.
And Legolas: Who is perfect in absolutely every way ever imagined save for his hatred of dwarfs.

It's also how you use them. You can't make them the protagonist, but you can have them in your story, like Diomedes in the Illiad.
User avatar #214339 - mapleknight (03/01/2014) [-]
The character that brought this on was Kvothe from the Kingkiller Chronicles series. This is my favorite series and, of course, the main character. The literal point of the series is Kvothe retelling his story to a writer with some little bits of unreliable narrator sprinkled in. People argue he's a Mary Sue, and in all honesty he kind of is except for a few somewhat minute flaws, and it upsets me because that's literally the point of the series. Him explaining the fact that he is a Mary Sue.
User avatar #214341 - thebestpieever (03/01/2014) [-]
Well, that's a valid point you bring up.
But one must not forget that intentionally bad is still bad.
If you can get past that flaw, good for you, but other people aren't in the wrong for calling it out.
User avatar #214348 - mapleknight (03/01/2014) [-]
What do you mean?
The series is basically him retelling his view of how good he at least used to be. It makes sense, because why would you write someone or put them in a legend if they weren't exceptional compared to everyone else?
But, I'm not sure what you mean "intentionally bad is still bad."
User avatar #214355 - thebestpieever (03/01/2014) [-]
MMMMHMMM. You know who also has a legend? Achilles. And Achilles wasn't perfect, he was the greatest warrior the world has seen. But he was also a man barely in control of his emotions. His ego got the better of him and his rage was his downfall. You don't have to be perfect in order to be great; that's boring.

You say "that's the point, he's supposed to be a Mary Sue" and I say, if I made a cake with bleach instead of milk it doesn't matter if the point is for it to be toxic. It's still a fucking cake full of bleach. The flaws are still flaws, whether it's intentional or not. You can appreciate it, perhaps, but at the end of the day no one's is wrong if they say it's a shitty cake.
User avatar #214358 - mapleknight (03/01/2014) [-]
You're right, but keep in mind this character isn't super grimdark 2cool over-powered godlike man
he's just an exceptional fighter, thinker, and practitioner of magic and people scream OMG MARY SUE
because he's better than everyone else. I'm using that term that way here even though it bothers me, because it's convenient.
That's kind of the point, he's an exceptional person with actual real problems, good writing, and with a good (although semi-cliche) plot.
People shouldn't use the term mary sue for this character, even if he is super fucking good at being super fucking good at many things. He does have flaws but every idiot overlooks them and screams "MARY SUE" even though the point is that he's better.
User avatar #214367 - thebestpieever (03/01/2014) [-]
That still seems very boring. If the point of the story is that he's better than any challenger he may face, then what's the point? After all, we already know he's better, so you may just scribble in a page "He started being better and ended the same; the end"
User avatar #214372 - mapleknight (03/01/2014) [-]
He's RETELLING the story. He's also not better than any challenger he faces, he's just better than most people at very many skills. And, yeah, he does win a lot but that's kind of the point of the main character, to become victorious.
Otherwise, his main problem, I suppose, is largely paranormal / supernatural / what-the-fuck-ever and even someone with exceptional skill in many things (great thinker, good fighter [although i suppose he's not a great fighter, he's just better than most, there is an entire country of people better] and good magician) is gonna have problems with a team of super-demons who kill anyone who tries to learn more about them which is exactly what he's doing
User avatar #214376 - thebestpieever (03/01/2014) [-]
I'm going off what you tell me. You say "The whole point of the story is for him to win because he's better than anyone". To which I retort, then there's no point in seeing the story. Now you say he's not the best, OK, then that's not the point of the story and you're shit at literary analysis. But I digress.

A story is about trials and tribulations, not the final result. That's why there's tragedy, comedy, slice of life. Dorian Gray is all about Dorian failing miserably to face the central conflict to the point where the last option remaining is to take his own life. If a character can't fail, never fails, then there is no point to a story. It doesn't matter if he always has to "push himself to the limit" he still always wins. That's storytelling 101, even Dragon Ball kind of got that, what with them killing the main character twice. Of course, that had another huge badge of problems, but at the end of the day they got the central conceit: The test has to take something from you. If the characters don't change, evolve, give something they were up in a fundamental level, then it doesn't matter.
User avatar #214378 - mapleknight (03/01/2014) [-]
It's hard to describe. The idea that he's the "greatest godlike person on earth whose power rivals god" isn't in the story, but he's overpowered. He's not better than everyone else, but he's exceptional. That's what I mean, there. It's fucking stupid that people would imply he's a mary sue, is what i'm saying.
There ARE trials and tribulations, that IS the point of the story. This is just difficult for me to communicate. We all know that he'll live, and we all know very vaguely what happens at the end but not entirely. It's kind of hard for me to communicate this because I just woke up and I'm really fucking irritated
User avatar #214374 - mapleknight (03/01/2014) [-]
I mean, we all know he's going to live, it's just figuring out the plot. The plot and writing in this series are fantastic.
The fact that knowing a hero will somehow turn out victorious in the end (his life is actually completely destroyed and he becomes a figure of legend at the end, but we haven't got there yet!) doesn't mean you can't enjoy something
User avatar #214377 - thebestpieever (03/01/2014) [-]
And bingo. You've arrived at the conclusion. That aspect of it is shit, but, you can enjoy it because there are other things that make up for it. You see? It isn't hard to accept that what you like isn't perfect.
User avatar #214380 - mapleknight (03/01/2014) [-]
I'm aware it's not perfect, but the aspect isn't shit.
Let's look at Beowulf. We know he's exceptional, he is extremely strong and cunning. Do we hate him for this?
Is he shit for this? Is he a Mary Sue for this? By your logic the fact that he is strong and cunning makes the aspect of the story shit because he's better than everyone else at something.
User avatar #214382 - thebestpieever (03/01/2014) [-]
Yes, beowulf is a shit character. His legend is still good and one that I enjoy thoroughly, why? Because it's got and interesting mythology and the events of it are interesting. Beowulf himself is great but boring. Because Beowulf will never do something you don't expect, he's too good. Beowulf, as a character, is shit. But the Beowulf poem, at it's core, is about this great man. Which is entertaining because you get a sense of this god amongst men and the feelings he evokes in others as he shapes the world in his wake. Which is in itself grandiose and sprawling.

At his core Beowulf is more of an icon and a plot device than character. Beowulf himself is a shit character but a great icon. So yeah, Beowulf has shit characters, but the world and iconography it presents is interesting and grandiose, therefore, I like it despite it's characters being boring. Because I like it's world.

TL;DR: Beowulf as a character is shit and a Mary Sue. As an Icon he is excellent because the world around him lends itself to create a great, iconic hero.
User avatar #214331 - leonhardt (03/01/2014) [-]
Did someone call your Original Character (Do not Steal) a Mary Sue?
User avatar #214335 - mapleknight (03/01/2014) [-]
lel
nah, when I write I only share it among a group of people. But, a lot of people claim one of my favorite characters in a series is a Mary Sue when that's literally the point of the series, and it generates mass butthurt from me
User avatar #214343 - leonhardt (03/01/2014) [-]
Which character are we talking about.
#214351 - anonymous (03/01/2014) [-]
Sonic
User avatar #214350 - mapleknight (03/01/2014) [-]
detailed above
#23 - They added another definition for literally (to show extreme e… 03/01/2014 on You know what... 0
#78 - He was a melting pot of friendship. He was a nice guy. 03/01/2014 on skeleton +2
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#4 - evilhomer ONLINE (06/21/2014) [-]
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