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|#70 - OH YES WATERMELON SHOT!||07/02/2013 on What the society has come...||0|
|#104 - but He give us the freedom to follow him or not, and satan got… [+] (21 new replies)||07/02/2013 on i dont care||+1|
#161 - WillJi (07/02/2013) [-]
Well, the dilemma here is that freedom definitely can't exist with an all-knowing, all-powerful being. If God creates a scenario, he will know the outcome of the scenario even before it was created. So if he set up Eden and the fruit knowing full well that Eve will eat it and condemn humanity from the very beginning, then it was all his plan. No choice involved.
Second, even if you argue God isn't completely all knowing/powerful and therefore these is still choice. Think about it. If you have a probability, no matter how small, it will happen if you give it an eternity. If I recall, Adam and Eve were immortal at the time and they would've only bred more immortal kids and so on for eternity. The chances of someone eating the fruit could be "0.00000000000000000001%" and it still would've happened eventually.
Third, Adam and Eve had no concept of right or wrong until they ate the fruit. I'm sure you figure this one out yourself.
#175 - ggdhindo (07/02/2013) [-]
well, since Eve ate the fruit for what is right or wrong, we become a full of minds and ideas being. there for we have the abilities to have an ideas and a decision making skill. And since Hes all-knowing what is going to happen, He know in the end whos going to follow him or not. But since Hes all-powerfull being,God give us the freedom to follow His word or not. because what is going to happen,HE able to change it with his power. He is not in control of our decision to follow him or not , We are in control so it s our freedom.
iknow religion its a hardest and the weirdest discussion in life, but i like you man youre smart i like the way you think.
#195 - WillJi (07/02/2013) [-]
True freedom means there's a chance for a decision to go different ways. But to have multiple possibilities means that God HAS to be limited in knowledge. Probabilities only exist when you don't know for certain what will be.
For example, a rock will fall until it hits the ground unless something stops it. We know this because we have full understanding of the concept. If it was a rolling die, however, we can see multiple possibilities for the outcome of which side lands up. This is because we don't have the brain capacity for all the necessary info, (ex: mass, atom distribution, wind, energy movement, velocity, composition, etc.). If we did, there would be no uncertainty.
Human behavior and decision making is just like the dice dilemma. Our bodies and minds follow predictable universal laws. The issue is that the information needed to predict with 100% accuracy is above our limitations. In reality, we are no different than a falling rock or a rolling die. The issue lies in perception. We see an illusion of choice because we don't have the mental capacity to know it all. In theory, an all-knowing god shouldn't and he would see us as no more than falling rocks; no true control of our fates, following a predetermined path unless stopped.
This is why I think the Calvinism branch of Christianity had the right idea about predestination. They realized that omnipotence and free will are incompatible. This is also why I think a god can't be all-powerful. You can't just say "since he's all powerful he can do anything he wants including the impossible", because some things just can't exist in the presence of another. If he's all powerful, he's all knowing. If he's all knowing, then free will can't exist. If free will can't exist, then it's something he cannot do. If he cannot do it, then he is not all powerful. See how that works? Now if you were to say that God has some power, but not absolute, then I will concede his existence as a possibility, albeit a small one.
#140 - anonymous poster (07/02/2013) [-]
we would all be mindless slaves to God if he gave us no choice between him or satan
#108 - ggdhindo (07/02/2013) [-]
Yes it is a freedom , Its all up to us to follow Him or not right, cuz hell were made just for satan and his followers because they have committed sin. But since eve got us in deep shit, now we have the to choose between right ways of living or the other way around. and it is all up to us because he gave us that freedom really.
#114 - bigredthunder (07/02/2013) [-]
Well that would be fine if it actually worked that way. The problem is you can live the right way and go through your life not doing anything wrong at all but then when its time to go to heaven oh shit it looks like you were a Hindu or an atheist or a Mormon and its straight to hell for you.
#125 - ggdhindo (07/02/2013) [-]
i got what you saying man i got alot of family members that arent a Christian, they all do good things in there life, but i read it once in the Bible that there are alot of good people and wonderful people that are going to hell, just because they choose to ignore the words of the God. Iknow it sucks cuz you know theyre my family member, its a pain inside. but it was to late for me to help them more. because there always one way to go to heaven its through Jesus Him self.
#129 - ggdhindo (07/02/2013) [-]
no he wont punish you, but you know where youre going tho, it your own decision to do what His word said or not. you know hell we're made just for satan and them. God dont want you to go to hell, but again he dont put you on strap or lock you inside a gate so that you wont go to hell. because you got that freedom to choose your path. He cant decide it for you its your own decision. and no slave owners do not had as equally much kindness as God. its weird and stuff but you know what im sayin. ask me more i guess
#133 - smittywrbmnjnsn (07/02/2013) [-]
How is sending you to eternal torment not a punishment?
Saying that you have the choice between doing what he wants and being happy, and doing what he doesn't and being sent to hell...is EXACTLY like a slave being able to either: Be a slave or be killed for trying to escape.
Name 1 thing that a god does, that a slave owner doesn't do.
#148 - ggdhindo (07/02/2013) [-]
ok well theres a reason why tho right, maybe i got like a type 2 diabetes and its bad for me, so i dont consider it a s a punishment, but as a lesson. because my mom wants what the best for me. Just like how God told Adam and Eve not to eat that forbidden fruit, the reason he told them not to eat it is so that they wont fall into a sin. because He wants the best for them.
#154 - ggdhindo (07/02/2013) [-]
that cookie have nothing to do with my type 2 diabetes, but my mom have that cookie for some reason that i dont know. just like how God put that apple in that garden, it have nothing to do with sin. but HE explained clearly to Adam and Eve not to eat it, but they still it eat. Just like how my mom explained to my dumbbutt not to eat the cookie, but i still eat it. ofcourse we're gonne get smacked. shes not trying to protect me from getting smaked, she protecting me form getting my diabetes worst. God is not trying protecting Adam and eve from getting kicked out of the garden, He's protecting them from fallen into that sin.
#163 - ggdhindo (07/02/2013) [-]
Hell is a punishment for satan, not for us.
Im not a satan nor his followers so i dont admit that hell is a punishment me. But for others who follow satan and others who decide ignore God's word. because we're not a mindless slave we have that freewill we are told to do or go to that punishment that we'rent made for us in the firstplace (btw God sent em to earth not hell)
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