Traitors and deserters

This is possible. Galileo springs to mind. He risked heresy in proving the copernican model with his telescope. Which goes to show that he did at least, "seek the truth" which is a principle propagated by Christ himself. I put it to you however that a lot of people in the catholic church during those turbulent times (and even today) were not "Christian" or rather claimed to be but did not fit the definition. They were opportunists who saw power in the ignorant masses of the growing church and seized the reigns. These people exist in every time period and are responsible for the downfall of every attempt at utopia man has ever made. However, it is important to note that the Christian worldview, has endured and still endures corruption even to this day. It can only be because anyone has the ability to look up the basic Christian doctrine and decide it's validity for themselves .

Meh, no true scotsman fallacy. If we only count people who lived their lives in line with the teachings of Jesus we end up with maybe a dozen historically significant Christians. It's more realistic to count someone as a Christian if they said they were unless there was explicit evidence that they didn't actually believe and really were just saying it.

In biblical terms, we can "Know a tree by its fruits."Matthew 7:15-20. Christians believe that It's ultimately up to God in the end to make the determination. Considering that everyone fails, nobody stays perfectly in line with the teachings of Christ. But If a man who says that he speaks for God makes repeated claims contradictory to doctrine, It is highly likely that he is a liar. Take for example those church leaders of the time period who claimed that the Bible could only be read in Latin. This idea is in direct contradiction to Christ's great commission to spread the good news to every nation. Men were martyred by the Catholic church for translating the bible into english. (William Tyndale) Keeping the Bible in language that only most clergy understood, ensured the priests dominance over the common men. They could and did make up extra-biblical laws which were also contradictory to doctrine. IE condolences. It is no fallacy to say that "no true Christian would do something like this" when the definition and standard for what a Christian should be is contained within the book they follow. And according to that same book, not many people who claim to be Christian actually are. "Many are called, few are chosen" Matthew 22:14

The Christian test for Christianity gives different results depending on whether or not you are a believer. According to John 3:16 the most fundamental requirement is belief. Everything else is secondary. If you believe in Christianity, then going by your verse, a person whose views and actions seem to contradict and work against Jesus' teachings necessarily cannot believe in their heart. If they did then their 'fruits' would be good - no matter what. If you don't believe and apply the same standards, however, that connection fails - a non-believer doesn't hold the fruits to be a necessary co-indicator with belief. For a non-believer it is very easily imaginable for someone to truly believe in Jesus and to still produce negative results - bad fruit.

I'm not really trying to argue with you. If you want to take the hardline Christian stance that's your choice, but understand the logic doesn't follow for non-Christians trying to make the distinction. As a non-believer, if I need to make the distinction between a Christian and a non-Christian, the results of their behavior tell me very little.

**bigjd used "*roll picture*"**
**bigjd rolled image**
But I like to argue! I understand that most who do not believe, recognize Christians as those who simply claim the title. I originally posted in an attempt to shed light on the difference. I know that most people wont care. They'll continue to pick out the bad examples left behind by those who have failed the faith as "proof" that religion is false. This is human nature, to find the easiest route in which to ease our conscience. On another note, I think that you confuse belief with faith. A person can very easily believe in God and act in rebellion as per James 2:19 Where it says that the demons believe and tremble. The difference I suppose is trust or better yet purpose. If a person "believes" it should change their whole outlook on life, This results in a change in how they live. They should produce "good Fruits" but it does not always go that way. Some close their eyes to the whole scene or "harden their hearts". More of that human nature. This results in those who create the bad example in the first place and turn people off of Christianity. .. Ima gonna chance a roll and see what happens.

Sure, Christian theology is complicated. More ink has been spilled over the divinity of Jesus than both of us put together could read in a lifetime. The basic assertion I'm making, though, is that judging a person's Christianity by the fruits of their labor only holds if you presuppose the truth of Christianity. Building on your goat/sheep metaphor, imagine the flock in question existed hundreds of years ago and all we had was a list of the prices each animal was bought at without their species noted. Now imagine we have a separate document from the era stating that goats were sold from 2-4 ducats and sheep from 4-6. If I don't accept the facticity of the latter document, it would be mighty hard for you to convince me that we can guess the identity of almost all of the animals by this metric.

crap

I mean, If you had 10 sheep in flock of 300 goats, it would certainly be easier to say they were all goats, but it would not be realistic.

That's perfect. Too perfect.

Yeah. X-com can get easy once you get to the really high levels.

Really, what are the aliens going to do against a squad like this?

>quadruple heart attacks
why do I keep playing?
pic related

You're not Jackmanagan...

No I am not.

But he is the one who finally convinced me to make a username on this site.

And he's the one who got me into Prequel which I now have a terribly unhealthy obsession with. I mean like seriously, I need help. I swore I'd never have a waifu and then this adorable thing came along. My life is over. I'm too repressed to fap and too uncaring to peruse a real relationship. I'm going to end up a wizard in no time at this rate.

I spent more time on this than I'm willing to admit.

Also comic Sans

you gotta just do it sometimes man