Rank #20086 on CommentsLevel 179 Comments: Soldier Of Funnyjunk
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|#126 - First guy is Hayato Furinji, the Invincible Superman, from His…||11/26/2015 on Whos Your Master?||+1|
|#64 - From a literary perspective, Understale is an outstanding stud… [+] (25 new replies)||11/24/2015 on Undertale, Papyrus' Judgement||0|
#67 - migueldecervantes (11/24/2015) [-]
Many artistic elements go into the creation of video games. I find it impossible to experience the wit and elegant technical skills of Bioshock with anything less than admiration for its creators' artistry. Moreover, video games offer storylines that can be compelling. They also introduce another personality into the mix: that of the gamer.But in my encounters with gaming - playing Grand Theft Auto IV, for example - I have found that my presence has done nothing to make the total dramatic experience deeper or more affecting. So if Grand Theft Auto is a work of art, my own oafish contributions to it have been positively deleterious. Maybe I need more practice. Even then, I'm not sure I could raise the fun of machine-gunning the odd gangster to the level of the best plays, novels or movies.Consider Shakespeare's Othello. Why should I imagine for a moment that my having an ability to intervene in the play could make it better? Would a happy ending - Othello and Desdemona singing a love duet, with me seated behind them strumming a harp - be an improvement on Shakespeare? Video games are good fun, but why do they need the validation of being called "art"? Isn't being fun enough?
-Denis Dutton, philosopher of aesthetics.
#88 - ninjaroo (11/25/2015) [-]
>Pioneer of art
I wouldn't say pioneer. There's been plenty of pretty and thought provoking games in the past. To use the example given by Extra Creditz, who are absolutely obsessed with the whole "Games are art" thing, the first God of War was a perfect example of a Greek tragedy. Shadow of the Colossus and Journey were both very pretty, and told a damn good story with little to no words. To The Moon was heart wrenching and thought provoking. The list goes on.
#73 - anon (11/24/2015) [-]
Dennis Dutton sounds like a fairly pretentious dipshit, to be perfectly honest. His attempt at an example with Othello is downright moronic. Why comparing shooting virtual gangsters to Othello is meant to be fair or sensible is a mystery to me, especially since how "good" a game or a play is is totally subjective. Why he's comparing such different forms of media is also beyond me. Does he also compare Shakespeare's poems to Dickens' books? If that's the case, I assume he also poses the question of "Why does having more words and making more sense make a book "better" than a poem?"
A game contains characters. They needed concept artists, designers, modelers, voice actors, motion capture actors. A game contains environments. They needed concept artists, designers, modelers. A game contains a plot. That needed probably multiple writers. A game needs to be traversed. A game contains a soundtrack and effects. That needs musicians or other audio experts. That needs an animator, level designers, people who make sure all elements intersect properly.
Anybody who doesn't think that all of these elements are art is moronic. Anyone who thinks that the sheer effort and skill with which these elements intertwine to form probably the most complex storytelling media ever isn't art is an idiot. If Dutton cannot grasp that, through actions in video games, DIFFERENT STORIES are told, he should stick to thinking about aesthetics.
Also, in my opinion, Othello was shitty.
By the way, if you're so curious about Undertale, just play the game. It costs like 10 bucks, lasts for between eight to ten hours or thereabouts, depending on your playthrough. Or watch a walkthrough if you feel like it. Form your own opinion instead of complaining that people aren't describing it well enough to you.
#98 - migueldecervantes (11/25/2015) [-]
No, no, no. Don't delete it!
It's funny and well said. I think there was just a huge miscommunication as to what I meant (and then there's the problem of me not understanding what ad hominem is).
My point was that he made what appears to be, at the outset, a "long-ass" comment, yet started it with an
#106 - migueldecervantes (11/25/2015) [-]
I think the most beautiful scars are the emotional ones. They are slow to reveal themselves to others. It takes time and intimacy, and, above all, care and comfort.
They show how one's spirit was formed throughout the hardships that life ineluctably inflicts upon our miserable kind.
These scars show the specific struggles one had to traverse, the pains one had to endure simply because life was still somehow worthwhile.
Unlike physical scars, they do not claim "I've been in a bar fight in 1999! Pretty tough guy jumps on me, so I roundhouse kick him in the face, but he got one stab at me. Not too bad, though. By the way, you have a tooth missing. Is that from Nam too?"
Oh, No. Instead they whisper, on some cold dark nights as two good souls sit alone and slowly warm to one another: "It is okay. It will be okay. Life is possible to endure, despite it all. I seem like pain, but this is not what I mean at all.
That is not it...
#104 - migueldecervantes (11/25/2015) [-]
Dear God! You're a fucking horrible person, and that's not even slightly funny...
Is what I would say to a person if they did what you just described to my poor, adorable pit bull.
Trust me, if they think squirting blood all over a defenseless (well... nah, whatever) dog is "amusing", they'll have another thing coming.
Most likely from other, less adorable pit bull.
Battle scars; not very aesthetic, in my humble FACT.
Yes, I went there.
#90 - migueldecervantes (11/25/2015) [-]
Ninjaroo? We've discussed this together already! You even fucking agreed with me.
Also, I did read it, and there was no other valuable information in his comment.
How did I mis-identify an ad hominem attack? "Denis Dutton sounds like a pretentious dipshit" is an ad hominem attack. There is no question about this.
If you wish to discuss subjectivity and art/video games again, I am up for it, of course.
#91 - ninjaroo (11/25/2015) [-]
Ad hominem is implying someone is wrong because they're a bad person.
"What would you know, you're hispanic" is ad hominem. "You're a poo poo head" is not. Anon went on to make points which you didn't respond to, which means that besides incorrectly identifying ad hominem, you committed the fallacy fallacy.
I would, but I'm taking summer school at the moment and have two engineering assignments per week. Strictly speaking, I've been on funnyjunk too long already.
#92 - migueldecervantes (11/25/2015) [-]
But don't you remember our long argument about this? Although taste is subjective in nature, objective statements (reflecting aesthetic quality) can be made about it? Ring a bell?
I linked some points Hume and Kant made, and gave you an analogy between "art" and "pain" as far as subjective experiences and their evaluations go.
You have to understand, it is unbelievably annoying to argue with someone, reach a conclusion, and then see that same person ignore the conclusion altogether subsequently.
And yes, you are right. It is not "ad hominem", simple name-calling (not much better though).
As I've said, he did not make any good points. All were invalid. "Most complex storytelling media" is not only a moronic, but a legitimately absurd statement, and his basic point is that because many artforms constitute interactive experience, the interactive experiences themselves are an artform.
That is, unfortunately, a breach in logic.
#93 - ninjaroo (11/25/2015) [-]
Don't do this to me man. I can't stop myself.
Rings a bell, but I can't remember agreeing. If I did, I don't know how you made me. Aesthetics is the beauty of something, and beauty is in the eye of the beholder. It doesn't make sense to say that something is objectively beautiful, which is to say it doesn't make sense to say something is objectively of aesthetic quality.
If you want to link to Hume and Kant again, I'll be reading shit anyway. May as well be shit that isn't hardcore math.
#100 - migueldecervantes (11/25/2015) [-]
Certainly, yet I think the most useful thing to do is to ask yourself "what makes me like trash, exactly?"--instead of flinging any kind of insightful mode of discussion out the window on basis of the subjective nature of art/literature/video games/whatever.
I mean, opinions are just that... Opinions. No general truth can be obtained from them. While I, for one, believe that a more scientific inquiry ought to be had in respect to the causality between features of an object of art and the experience of aesthetic quality.
Do you see the difference, or am I retarded?
#102 - ninjaroo (11/25/2015) [-]
Ah, but that's a different discussion. Trash isn't trash because nobody likes it, it's trash because it's worthless. And art isn't art because people like it, or because it's pretty, it's art because it's the application of skill for the means of expression and enjoyment. It's under this definition that games are art.
#96 - ninjaroo (11/25/2015) [-]
Yeah, I'm sorry about that. I've been joking to my friends that learning Currently learning, by absolutely no means even close to fluent German has awakened a tiny Hitler inside me, I'm just occasionally a prick for no reason. I considered deleting that comment within seconds of making it.
#94 - migueldecervantes (11/25/2015) [-]
I just remembered! We agreed that pain/beauty were subjective FACTS, and that facts, despite their subjectivity, are open to objective analysis and interpretation (since they are, indeed, possible to understand and are, to an extent, intelligible).
Basically: do you like UnderTale?
Is there a reason for which you like it?
What do you mean?
Well, is there a causal chain that leads from it being an OBJECT to your SUBJECTIVE interpretation that it is good?
Yes. If there weren't one, I wouldn't be able to make a subjective assessment in the first place.
Great, so despite the fact that the feeling itself (aesthetic emotion/pleasure) is fleeting, it is possible to objectively determine the features of the OBJECT and its connections to your subjective perception, and thus make objective and general statements about what, to an extent, constitutes "quality" in a specific work of art. Thus, we can later on form these ideas into some code (which is what, I believe, is meant by "theory" in that spectrum of human affairs).
Yeah, I guess.
It was kind of like that, I guess. Remember now?
#97 - ninjaroo (11/25/2015) [-]
Right. That doesn't make the thing not subjective, it makes it not baseless. As long as you understand the distinction.
What I mean is, we can determine the causal link between the thing I liked and me liking it, that doesn't make the thing objectively of high quality. I like anime, that doesn't mean it doesn't belong in the trash. The best we can do is aggregate a number of opinions into what people like and say "Yes, this thing is indeed of high aesthetic quality, as it is appreciated by many people."
#74 - shaddyz (11/24/2015) [-]
no, not really, its the reason why book to film and film to book suck, because somethings you can only archive via a medium and not with an other.
Undertale cannot be captured as a book, because its too free and not as a film, because you could never made the connection you need to enjoy it to the fullest