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Vandeekree

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#27 - Because to have knowledge of good and evil is to have free wil…  [+] (7 replies) 10/10/2016 on hate 0
User avatar
#28 - thevioletlightning (10/10/2016) [-]
the fact that you think no one would be heartbroken when they find out that they are never going to see their loved ones again is, to me, naive. you assume that being granted omniscience (not omnipotence as you said, as that deals with how much power one has over the universe, not how much one knows) will take away any emotions they feel towards those people, that it will take away any bonds they had with them. they may understand, but they will still feel sorrow.
User avatar
#29 - Vandeekree (10/10/2016) [-]
Sorry, I see them as the same thing as having the ability to see everything is virtually the same as having the power to control everything. But that's another debate and you're right that omniscience would be a better word.

It's not that knowing would take away the feelings, it would be that those feelings would be clearly handled. It would be like a grandma dying of old age. You understand that it was going to happen and there is none of the shock, just understanding. But sorrow is not always bad. Perhaps there is regret but perhaps not. Perhaps, should it turn out that sorrow is considered a punishment then the person is simply made to not exist without comprehending it's about to happen. There would be no going to hell really as they would appear there just as it was destroyed.
User avatar
#30 - thevioletlightning (10/10/2016) [-]
i just don't think it's right to erase an existence like that, even if the person was a monster in life. sending someone to purgatory to pay off their debt for the sins they committed would be one thing, but torturing them for a millennia and then wiping them from the face of creation just doesn't seem right to me.
User avatar
#33 - Vandeekree (10/10/2016) [-]
It doesn't allow anymore replies so I have to reply here.

But the whims of an infinite being are hard to understand. It seems to me he wants people to choose him instead of him forcing it. So he put us in the balanced perfectly fair world so we could choose without being swayed to far to one side or the other.

Also, the bible says the Earth is a sphere, the flat Earth belief is actually a myth. And, believe it or not, there is plenty of evidence of God's existence and which religion is right. It is simply the laziness of people or their bitterness towards the idea of God(usually a warped idea with misconceptions from my experience) that keeps them from accepting what they study. God made this world fair. It is people that make things unfair by hurting one another and it is the love of pleasure and hate of work that keep people from finding which religion is true.
User avatar
#34 - thevioletlightning (10/10/2016) [-]
all of the "evidence" that people have tried to convince me with can just as easily be attributed to any number of other deities worshiped by humans.
User avatar
#31 - Vandeekree (10/10/2016) [-]
It wouldn't be right for a human to do it. But an all seeing God has every right. He is all that is keeping us in existence at every moment. We leech off his power because he allows it. It could be argued that if he didn't concentrate on keeping us in existence then there would be nothing keeping us around and we would simply vanish.

Again, no offence, but I don't think you understand how much authority God has if you say it's not right for him to do anything. He created morality. It's only by his good nature that that morality is also good. And he can only be good because a being of unlimited power would want for nothing, and so have no reason to be evil. But if he were good he could want to spread goodness among those who could appreciate it, aka, being with free will like his.
User avatar
#32 - thevioletlightning (10/10/2016) [-]
i fully understand how much authority he supposedly has. and that's the part that i'm not okay with. he has all this power, so why does he care if people worship him or not? why does he deem it necessary to erase people from existence if they simply didn't think there was enough evidence to prove he existed? is he that egotistical? is he that desperate? "oh, you didn't think a book written by desert dwellers who thought the earth was a flat slab with a glass dome around it 2000 years before you were born was sufficient evidence of me, a being who can do anything it wants and could have shown itself to the world at any time with minimal effort? well, too bad, you no longer get to exist because for an insignificant period of time compared to the infinitesimal amount of time that will exist you didn't worship me." seems real fair to us humans.
#25 - It was said that God created them in his image. I find it hard…  [+] (9 replies) 10/10/2016 on hate 0
User avatar
#26 - thevioletlightning (10/10/2016) [-]
if that's the case then why did they have no knowledge of good and evil to begin with?

and that's the thing. how do you know it's painless? many of the nonbelievers will probably have loved ones in paradise that they will never see again, and they'll know that when they're sent to hell just before they're erased from existence. that in and of itself is torturous.
User avatar
#27 - Vandeekree (10/10/2016) [-]
Because to have knowledge of good and evil is to have free will. And if you have free will, then being in a paradise where you are happy and unaware you are naked, feel no shame or any negative feelings, then you are barred from sinning. You won't steal if you have everything you could ever want. You won't murder if you don't have the ability to consider other people a threat and worry and stress over them stealing from you or murdering you.

Free will, in my definition, requires two things. One is the ability to comprehend right and wrong and the second is the ability to do those things physically. If you have all your wants taken care of then you don't have free will nor understanding of good and evil. This understand of the forbidden fruit is that it not only changes the nature of the human brain, but that it also consists of the change in circumstance i. e. the move out of the paradise and into the harsher world we know today where gain requires work.

It's only torture when you don't understand. When you die, if you are given clear vision of everything that happened then you will suddenly understand why you were sent to hell and that you deserve it. You will be granted omnipotence or near to omnipotence. This will let you realize that you got your fair time with those loved ones and you squandered it. And now that that time is up then you will be removed from existence. Perhaps even from time itself, made to never have existed sense God created and is in control of time, but that's just speculation on my part and has no real foundation in the bible.

But how can someone be sad over something they know they deserve? They might regret earning the thing the earned and wish they had done differently but certainly they wouldn't be able feel sadness when they know it is all fair and just.
User avatar
#28 - thevioletlightning (10/10/2016) [-]
the fact that you think no one would be heartbroken when they find out that they are never going to see their loved ones again is, to me, naive. you assume that being granted omniscience (not omnipotence as you said, as that deals with how much power one has over the universe, not how much one knows) will take away any emotions they feel towards those people, that it will take away any bonds they had with them. they may understand, but they will still feel sorrow.
User avatar
#29 - Vandeekree (10/10/2016) [-]
Sorry, I see them as the same thing as having the ability to see everything is virtually the same as having the power to control everything. But that's another debate and you're right that omniscience would be a better word.

It's not that knowing would take away the feelings, it would be that those feelings would be clearly handled. It would be like a grandma dying of old age. You understand that it was going to happen and there is none of the shock, just understanding. But sorrow is not always bad. Perhaps there is regret but perhaps not. Perhaps, should it turn out that sorrow is considered a punishment then the person is simply made to not exist without comprehending it's about to happen. There would be no going to hell really as they would appear there just as it was destroyed.
User avatar
#30 - thevioletlightning (10/10/2016) [-]
i just don't think it's right to erase an existence like that, even if the person was a monster in life. sending someone to purgatory to pay off their debt for the sins they committed would be one thing, but torturing them for a millennia and then wiping them from the face of creation just doesn't seem right to me.
User avatar
#33 - Vandeekree (10/10/2016) [-]
It doesn't allow anymore replies so I have to reply here.

But the whims of an infinite being are hard to understand. It seems to me he wants people to choose him instead of him forcing it. So he put us in the balanced perfectly fair world so we could choose without being swayed to far to one side or the other.

Also, the bible says the Earth is a sphere, the flat Earth belief is actually a myth. And, believe it or not, there is plenty of evidence of God's existence and which religion is right. It is simply the laziness of people or their bitterness towards the idea of God(usually a warped idea with misconceptions from my experience) that keeps them from accepting what they study. God made this world fair. It is people that make things unfair by hurting one another and it is the love of pleasure and hate of work that keep people from finding which religion is true.
User avatar
#34 - thevioletlightning (10/10/2016) [-]
all of the "evidence" that people have tried to convince me with can just as easily be attributed to any number of other deities worshiped by humans.
User avatar
#31 - Vandeekree (10/10/2016) [-]
It wouldn't be right for a human to do it. But an all seeing God has every right. He is all that is keeping us in existence at every moment. We leech off his power because he allows it. It could be argued that if he didn't concentrate on keeping us in existence then there would be nothing keeping us around and we would simply vanish.

Again, no offence, but I don't think you understand how much authority God has if you say it's not right for him to do anything. He created morality. It's only by his good nature that that morality is also good. And he can only be good because a being of unlimited power would want for nothing, and so have no reason to be evil. But if he were good he could want to spread goodness among those who could appreciate it, aka, being with free will like his.
User avatar
#32 - thevioletlightning (10/10/2016) [-]
i fully understand how much authority he supposedly has. and that's the part that i'm not okay with. he has all this power, so why does he care if people worship him or not? why does he deem it necessary to erase people from existence if they simply didn't think there was enough evidence to prove he existed? is he that egotistical? is he that desperate? "oh, you didn't think a book written by desert dwellers who thought the earth was a flat slab with a glass dome around it 2000 years before you were born was sufficient evidence of me, a being who can do anything it wants and could have shown itself to the world at any time with minimal effort? well, too bad, you no longer get to exist because for an insignificant period of time compared to the infinitesimal amount of time that will exist you didn't worship me." seems real fair to us humans.
#23 - They didn't know good and evil. But they had logic and were th…  [+] (11 replies) 10/10/2016 on hate 0
User avatar
#24 - thevioletlightning (10/10/2016) [-]
oh, they had logic, which verse said that? cause i certainly didn't see it anywhere. i wasn't aware that the two humans with no understanding of good and evil were capable of using logic like Aristotle, Plato, and Socrates.

and ceasing to exist forever seems pretty eternal to me.
User avatar
#25 - Vandeekree (10/10/2016) [-]
It was said that God created them in his image. I find it hard to interpret that verse to mean the physical image sense God doesn't seem to have one. The image seems to be that we are being with complex minds like God's. He can think and understand and aren't just mechanical reactionary creatures like an animal and perhaps like an angel who is only a servant and is said to be lesser than a human once in heaven.

But ceasing to exist isn't a punishment. It's just nothing. You feel no pleasure, no pain. Are you saying it's wrong for a being that created life to remove that life painlessly from existence?
User avatar
#26 - thevioletlightning (10/10/2016) [-]
if that's the case then why did they have no knowledge of good and evil to begin with?

and that's the thing. how do you know it's painless? many of the nonbelievers will probably have loved ones in paradise that they will never see again, and they'll know that when they're sent to hell just before they're erased from existence. that in and of itself is torturous.
User avatar
#27 - Vandeekree (10/10/2016) [-]
Because to have knowledge of good and evil is to have free will. And if you have free will, then being in a paradise where you are happy and unaware you are naked, feel no shame or any negative feelings, then you are barred from sinning. You won't steal if you have everything you could ever want. You won't murder if you don't have the ability to consider other people a threat and worry and stress over them stealing from you or murdering you.

Free will, in my definition, requires two things. One is the ability to comprehend right and wrong and the second is the ability to do those things physically. If you have all your wants taken care of then you don't have free will nor understanding of good and evil. This understand of the forbidden fruit is that it not only changes the nature of the human brain, but that it also consists of the change in circumstance i. e. the move out of the paradise and into the harsher world we know today where gain requires work.

It's only torture when you don't understand. When you die, if you are given clear vision of everything that happened then you will suddenly understand why you were sent to hell and that you deserve it. You will be granted omnipotence or near to omnipotence. This will let you realize that you got your fair time with those loved ones and you squandered it. And now that that time is up then you will be removed from existence. Perhaps even from time itself, made to never have existed sense God created and is in control of time, but that's just speculation on my part and has no real foundation in the bible.

But how can someone be sad over something they know they deserve? They might regret earning the thing the earned and wish they had done differently but certainly they wouldn't be able feel sadness when they know it is all fair and just.
User avatar
#28 - thevioletlightning (10/10/2016) [-]
the fact that you think no one would be heartbroken when they find out that they are never going to see their loved ones again is, to me, naive. you assume that being granted omniscience (not omnipotence as you said, as that deals with how much power one has over the universe, not how much one knows) will take away any emotions they feel towards those people, that it will take away any bonds they had with them. they may understand, but they will still feel sorrow.
User avatar
#29 - Vandeekree (10/10/2016) [-]
Sorry, I see them as the same thing as having the ability to see everything is virtually the same as having the power to control everything. But that's another debate and you're right that omniscience would be a better word.

It's not that knowing would take away the feelings, it would be that those feelings would be clearly handled. It would be like a grandma dying of old age. You understand that it was going to happen and there is none of the shock, just understanding. But sorrow is not always bad. Perhaps there is regret but perhaps not. Perhaps, should it turn out that sorrow is considered a punishment then the person is simply made to not exist without comprehending it's about to happen. There would be no going to hell really as they would appear there just as it was destroyed.
User avatar
#30 - thevioletlightning (10/10/2016) [-]
i just don't think it's right to erase an existence like that, even if the person was a monster in life. sending someone to purgatory to pay off their debt for the sins they committed would be one thing, but torturing them for a millennia and then wiping them from the face of creation just doesn't seem right to me.
User avatar
#33 - Vandeekree (10/10/2016) [-]
It doesn't allow anymore replies so I have to reply here.

But the whims of an infinite being are hard to understand. It seems to me he wants people to choose him instead of him forcing it. So he put us in the balanced perfectly fair world so we could choose without being swayed to far to one side or the other.

Also, the bible says the Earth is a sphere, the flat Earth belief is actually a myth. And, believe it or not, there is plenty of evidence of God's existence and which religion is right. It is simply the laziness of people or their bitterness towards the idea of God(usually a warped idea with misconceptions from my experience) that keeps them from accepting what they study. God made this world fair. It is people that make things unfair by hurting one another and it is the love of pleasure and hate of work that keep people from finding which religion is true.
User avatar
#34 - thevioletlightning (10/10/2016) [-]
all of the "evidence" that people have tried to convince me with can just as easily be attributed to any number of other deities worshiped by humans.
User avatar
#31 - Vandeekree (10/10/2016) [-]
It wouldn't be right for a human to do it. But an all seeing God has every right. He is all that is keeping us in existence at every moment. We leech off his power because he allows it. It could be argued that if he didn't concentrate on keeping us in existence then there would be nothing keeping us around and we would simply vanish.

Again, no offence, but I don't think you understand how much authority God has if you say it's not right for him to do anything. He created morality. It's only by his good nature that that morality is also good. And he can only be good because a being of unlimited power would want for nothing, and so have no reason to be evil. But if he were good he could want to spread goodness among those who could appreciate it, aka, being with free will like his.
User avatar
#32 - thevioletlightning (10/10/2016) [-]
i fully understand how much authority he supposedly has. and that's the part that i'm not okay with. he has all this power, so why does he care if people worship him or not? why does he deem it necessary to erase people from existence if they simply didn't think there was enough evidence to prove he existed? is he that egotistical? is he that desperate? "oh, you didn't think a book written by desert dwellers who thought the earth was a flat slab with a glass dome around it 2000 years before you were born was sufficient evidence of me, a being who can do anything it wants and could have shown itself to the world at any time with minimal effort? well, too bad, you no longer get to exist because for an insignificant period of time compared to the infinitesimal amount of time that will exist you didn't worship me." seems real fair to us humans.
#21 - I'm not trying to be insulting here but it sounds to me like y…  [+] (21 replies) 10/10/2016 on hate 0
User avatar
#22 - thevioletlightning (10/10/2016) [-]
if they had no knowledge of good and evil, then how exactly could they know that trusting the serpent was wrong and trusting god was right? in what world does it make sense that two adults with the mental capacity of children would not fall victim to a trick?

and the Christian god DID punish them. he made it so the woman would feel excruciating pain during childbirth and the man would have to toil for the rest of his days to feed his family, when they couldn't even know what they had done was "wrong" when they did it.

all i know is it's ultimately infinite punishment for a finite crime
User avatar
#35 - Vandeekree (10/10/2016) [-]
No more room so replying here again.

But it cannot. The bible has more prophesies that can be third party shown to have come true, detailed and more specifically stated than any other holy book. If you study it you will find that it is flawless. No contradictions and no flaws. You can google around and find plenty of people proposing flaws but they can all be explained easily, most aren't contradictions and fewer still are even in context.

There are also many philosophical arguments. If you keep up with philosophy, religiously supporting ideas are dominating the aging and unchanging atheist views. The teleological argument and ontological arguments are stronger than they have ever been. I recommend the book "Reasonable Faith" by William Lane Craig. He explains these the best I have yet found.

Again, not to insult, but I think the only reason you think there isn't good evidence for religion is because you haven't looked very hard and because it is in the cultural "cool" to be post modern.
User avatar
#36 - thevioletlightning (10/10/2016) [-]
i choose not to decide. over 3000 deities worshiped by our species, the probability that i'll choose correctly is ridiculously low, so why even place a bet? that's my philosophy on the issue. you can believe in your prophecies if you want to, every prophecy comes true at some point, if you make it vague enough, and/or base it off of what has happened in the past, since history tends to repeat itself.
User avatar
#37 - Vandeekree (10/10/2016) [-]
The probability if you randomly choose is low. But it's not random. You use logic to choose by comparing every religion you can find. And I can tell you as I have done it(of course I'm still doing it, I don't claim to be a total expert on every religion yet) that Christianity stands out in every way.

Doesn't it bother you not to know? Isn't the purpose of life to figure out the purpose of life? Are you not the least bit worried you don't know what's truly right or wrong and are refusing to search and choose to assume things without checking for yourself?
User avatar
#38 - thevioletlightning (10/10/2016) [-]
not really. ignorance is bliss. if knowing helps you sleep at night that's fine, but i don't feel a need to know.
User avatar
#39 - Vandeekree (10/10/2016) [-]
To be honest, that sounds like pride talking. And that sounds like a very dangerous attitude to have about anything, not just religion. I hope in time your mind will change and you will realize you are an intelligent human being who would gain much from learning about the world around you.
User avatar
#40 - thevioletlightning (10/10/2016) [-]
whatever you say. i simply see no reason to need to know.
User avatar
#41 - Vandeekree (10/10/2016) [-]
And that's the apathy that I was talking about before.

How about this for a reason. If you don't do it you risk damnation from a religion, but if you do search the you might get heaven. So there's no possible downside to searching but a very large potential downside to not searching. It's only logical to intellectually search.
User avatar
#42 - thevioletlightning (10/10/2016) [-]
meh. like i said, i choose not to decide.
User avatar
#23 - Vandeekree (10/10/2016) [-]
They didn't know good and evil. But they had logic and were thinking beings. That's why God wanted them to just trust him that they had it good and it would be harder on them if they ate. But they decided otherwise. So of course he didn't punish them for it. He put the knowledge at their fingertips because that's free will. You don't have free will if you can't choose to do anything no matter how smart you are.

And it's the whole point that they did fall victim to the trick. They were going to because they didn't understand and thought having everything would be best. They got greedy and decided to go against the being who had given them everything beside the fruit. That's the whole message of the story. God gave us free will and understanding of good and evil and logic. And those things have consequences but they are arguably better than being ignorant in paradise.

It's to show that God wanted us to live in a perfect world but also wanted us to have free will. To demonstrate this he gave ignorant people the choice to have knowledge and they took it and thus we are the rational moral driven human being we are today. It's to show that there can't be free will and also forced paradise at the same time.

And the toils of life aren't a punishment, they are an opportunity to choose. It's part of the knowledge of good and evil. If you know of good and evil but are in no position to ever want to do evil then you don't have the choice really. The garden was a paradise but free will couldn't happen there as there is no motivation to choose anything but being a happy ignorant naked person.

Is that a better way of explaining it?

But what is the infinite punishment? Life is not infinite and hell is not infinite. So what do you mean?

Is that a better way of explaining it?
User avatar
#24 - thevioletlightning (10/10/2016) [-]
oh, they had logic, which verse said that? cause i certainly didn't see it anywhere. i wasn't aware that the two humans with no understanding of good and evil were capable of using logic like Aristotle, Plato, and Socrates.

and ceasing to exist forever seems pretty eternal to me.
User avatar
#25 - Vandeekree (10/10/2016) [-]
It was said that God created them in his image. I find it hard to interpret that verse to mean the physical image sense God doesn't seem to have one. The image seems to be that we are being with complex minds like God's. He can think and understand and aren't just mechanical reactionary creatures like an animal and perhaps like an angel who is only a servant and is said to be lesser than a human once in heaven.

But ceasing to exist isn't a punishment. It's just nothing. You feel no pleasure, no pain. Are you saying it's wrong for a being that created life to remove that life painlessly from existence?
User avatar
#26 - thevioletlightning (10/10/2016) [-]
if that's the case then why did they have no knowledge of good and evil to begin with?

and that's the thing. how do you know it's painless? many of the nonbelievers will probably have loved ones in paradise that they will never see again, and they'll know that when they're sent to hell just before they're erased from existence. that in and of itself is torturous.
User avatar
#27 - Vandeekree (10/10/2016) [-]
Because to have knowledge of good and evil is to have free will. And if you have free will, then being in a paradise where you are happy and unaware you are naked, feel no shame or any negative feelings, then you are barred from sinning. You won't steal if you have everything you could ever want. You won't murder if you don't have the ability to consider other people a threat and worry and stress over them stealing from you or murdering you.

Free will, in my definition, requires two things. One is the ability to comprehend right and wrong and the second is the ability to do those things physically. If you have all your wants taken care of then you don't have free will nor understanding of good and evil. This understand of the forbidden fruit is that it not only changes the nature of the human brain, but that it also consists of the change in circumstance i. e. the move out of the paradise and into the harsher world we know today where gain requires work.

It's only torture when you don't understand. When you die, if you are given clear vision of everything that happened then you will suddenly understand why you were sent to hell and that you deserve it. You will be granted omnipotence or near to omnipotence. This will let you realize that you got your fair time with those loved ones and you squandered it. And now that that time is up then you will be removed from existence. Perhaps even from time itself, made to never have existed sense God created and is in control of time, but that's just speculation on my part and has no real foundation in the bible.

But how can someone be sad over something they know they deserve? They might regret earning the thing the earned and wish they had done differently but certainly they wouldn't be able feel sadness when they know it is all fair and just.
User avatar
#28 - thevioletlightning (10/10/2016) [-]
the fact that you think no one would be heartbroken when they find out that they are never going to see their loved ones again is, to me, naive. you assume that being granted omniscience (not omnipotence as you said, as that deals with how much power one has over the universe, not how much one knows) will take away any emotions they feel towards those people, that it will take away any bonds they had with them. they may understand, but they will still feel sorrow.
User avatar
#29 - Vandeekree (10/10/2016) [-]
Sorry, I see them as the same thing as having the ability to see everything is virtually the same as having the power to control everything. But that's another debate and you're right that omniscience would be a better word.

It's not that knowing would take away the feelings, it would be that those feelings would be clearly handled. It would be like a grandma dying of old age. You understand that it was going to happen and there is none of the shock, just understanding. But sorrow is not always bad. Perhaps there is regret but perhaps not. Perhaps, should it turn out that sorrow is considered a punishment then the person is simply made to not exist without comprehending it's about to happen. There would be no going to hell really as they would appear there just as it was destroyed.
User avatar
#30 - thevioletlightning (10/10/2016) [-]
i just don't think it's right to erase an existence like that, even if the person was a monster in life. sending someone to purgatory to pay off their debt for the sins they committed would be one thing, but torturing them for a millennia and then wiping them from the face of creation just doesn't seem right to me.
User avatar
#33 - Vandeekree (10/10/2016) [-]
It doesn't allow anymore replies so I have to reply here.

But the whims of an infinite being are hard to understand. It seems to me he wants people to choose him instead of him forcing it. So he put us in the balanced perfectly fair world so we could choose without being swayed to far to one side or the other.

Also, the bible says the Earth is a sphere, the flat Earth belief is actually a myth. And, believe it or not, there is plenty of evidence of God's existence and which religion is right. It is simply the laziness of people or their bitterness towards the idea of God(usually a warped idea with misconceptions from my experience) that keeps them from accepting what they study. God made this world fair. It is people that make things unfair by hurting one another and it is the love of pleasure and hate of work that keep people from finding which religion is true.
User avatar
#34 - thevioletlightning (10/10/2016) [-]
all of the "evidence" that people have tried to convince me with can just as easily be attributed to any number of other deities worshiped by humans.
User avatar
#31 - Vandeekree (10/10/2016) [-]
It wouldn't be right for a human to do it. But an all seeing God has every right. He is all that is keeping us in existence at every moment. We leech off his power because he allows it. It could be argued that if he didn't concentrate on keeping us in existence then there would be nothing keeping us around and we would simply vanish.

Again, no offence, but I don't think you understand how much authority God has if you say it's not right for him to do anything. He created morality. It's only by his good nature that that morality is also good. And he can only be good because a being of unlimited power would want for nothing, and so have no reason to be evil. But if he were good he could want to spread goodness among those who could appreciate it, aka, being with free will like his.
User avatar
#32 - thevioletlightning (10/10/2016) [-]
i fully understand how much authority he supposedly has. and that's the part that i'm not okay with. he has all this power, so why does he care if people worship him or not? why does he deem it necessary to erase people from existence if they simply didn't think there was enough evidence to prove he existed? is he that egotistical? is he that desperate? "oh, you didn't think a book written by desert dwellers who thought the earth was a flat slab with a glass dome around it 2000 years before you were born was sufficient evidence of me, a being who can do anything it wants and could have shown itself to the world at any time with minimal effort? well, too bad, you no longer get to exist because for an insignificant period of time compared to the infinitesimal amount of time that will exist you didn't worship me." seems real fair to us humans.
#19 - Only subjective morality is subjective. Of course it goes with…  [+] (23 replies) 10/10/2016 on hate 0
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#20 - thevioletlightning (10/10/2016) [-]
i was a Christian since birth, but i saw over time that the god of Christianity was barbaric and hypocritical. if you've read the story of Genesis, you'd see that god put two people who literally could not tell the difference between right and wrong in a garden, and put a tree with forbidden fruit within their grasp and told them not to eat it, and when they did anyway, he punished them, despite knowing they didn't know any better. he could have put the tree somewhere else, and let the two humans live in paradise forever, but he chose to put it there and give them the opportunity to be tricked into eating it. it's clear to me he wanted them to be sinners.
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#21 - Vandeekree (10/10/2016) [-]
I'm not trying to be insulting here but it sounds to me like you haven't studied very deeply.

The story of Adam and Eve and the fruit is exactly as you said. God giving man and woman paradise. But he also gave them a choice out of that. A choice to have free will.

That was the warning. He told them to trust in him that they had paradise and that it would stay that way so long as they trusted him. That's all he wanted. But they failed when they decided they wanted the knowledge of good and evil from the fruit. And once they knew, like a child turning to an adult, they became accountable.

God did not punish them, he warned them against a choice while still giving them that choice. He could have dominated them and kept the ability to ever understand good and evil away, but that wouldn't be giving them free will. And so if you see your free will and understanding as a punishment than so be it. But in reality, it's only a consequence that opens the ability for us to be more like God but also accountable for our sin.

Did I explain that well enough?
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#22 - thevioletlightning (10/10/2016) [-]
if they had no knowledge of good and evil, then how exactly could they know that trusting the serpent was wrong and trusting god was right? in what world does it make sense that two adults with the mental capacity of children would not fall victim to a trick?

and the Christian god DID punish them. he made it so the woman would feel excruciating pain during childbirth and the man would have to toil for the rest of his days to feed his family, when they couldn't even know what they had done was "wrong" when they did it.

all i know is it's ultimately infinite punishment for a finite crime
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#35 - Vandeekree (10/10/2016) [-]
No more room so replying here again.

But it cannot. The bible has more prophesies that can be third party shown to have come true, detailed and more specifically stated than any other holy book. If you study it you will find that it is flawless. No contradictions and no flaws. You can google around and find plenty of people proposing flaws but they can all be explained easily, most aren't contradictions and fewer still are even in context.

There are also many philosophical arguments. If you keep up with philosophy, religiously supporting ideas are dominating the aging and unchanging atheist views. The teleological argument and ontological arguments are stronger than they have ever been. I recommend the book "Reasonable Faith" by William Lane Craig. He explains these the best I have yet found.

Again, not to insult, but I think the only reason you think there isn't good evidence for religion is because you haven't looked very hard and because it is in the cultural "cool" to be post modern.
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#36 - thevioletlightning (10/10/2016) [-]
i choose not to decide. over 3000 deities worshiped by our species, the probability that i'll choose correctly is ridiculously low, so why even place a bet? that's my philosophy on the issue. you can believe in your prophecies if you want to, every prophecy comes true at some point, if you make it vague enough, and/or base it off of what has happened in the past, since history tends to repeat itself.
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#37 - Vandeekree (10/10/2016) [-]
The probability if you randomly choose is low. But it's not random. You use logic to choose by comparing every religion you can find. And I can tell you as I have done it(of course I'm still doing it, I don't claim to be a total expert on every religion yet) that Christianity stands out in every way.

Doesn't it bother you not to know? Isn't the purpose of life to figure out the purpose of life? Are you not the least bit worried you don't know what's truly right or wrong and are refusing to search and choose to assume things without checking for yourself?
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#38 - thevioletlightning (10/10/2016) [-]
not really. ignorance is bliss. if knowing helps you sleep at night that's fine, but i don't feel a need to know.
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#39 - Vandeekree (10/10/2016) [-]
To be honest, that sounds like pride talking. And that sounds like a very dangerous attitude to have about anything, not just religion. I hope in time your mind will change and you will realize you are an intelligent human being who would gain much from learning about the world around you.
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#40 - thevioletlightning (10/10/2016) [-]
whatever you say. i simply see no reason to need to know.
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#41 - Vandeekree (10/10/2016) [-]
And that's the apathy that I was talking about before.

How about this for a reason. If you don't do it you risk damnation from a religion, but if you do search the you might get heaven. So there's no possible downside to searching but a very large potential downside to not searching. It's only logical to intellectually search.
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#42 - thevioletlightning (10/10/2016) [-]
meh. like i said, i choose not to decide.
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#23 - Vandeekree (10/10/2016) [-]
They didn't know good and evil. But they had logic and were thinking beings. That's why God wanted them to just trust him that they had it good and it would be harder on them if they ate. But they decided otherwise. So of course he didn't punish them for it. He put the knowledge at their fingertips because that's free will. You don't have free will if you can't choose to do anything no matter how smart you are.

And it's the whole point that they did fall victim to the trick. They were going to because they didn't understand and thought having everything would be best. They got greedy and decided to go against the being who had given them everything beside the fruit. That's the whole message of the story. God gave us free will and understanding of good and evil and logic. And those things have consequences but they are arguably better than being ignorant in paradise.

It's to show that God wanted us to live in a perfect world but also wanted us to have free will. To demonstrate this he gave ignorant people the choice to have knowledge and they took it and thus we are the rational moral driven human being we are today. It's to show that there can't be free will and also forced paradise at the same time.

And the toils of life aren't a punishment, they are an opportunity to choose. It's part of the knowledge of good and evil. If you know of good and evil but are in no position to ever want to do evil then you don't have the choice really. The garden was a paradise but free will couldn't happen there as there is no motivation to choose anything but being a happy ignorant naked person.

Is that a better way of explaining it?

But what is the infinite punishment? Life is not infinite and hell is not infinite. So what do you mean?

Is that a better way of explaining it?
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#24 - thevioletlightning (10/10/2016) [-]
oh, they had logic, which verse said that? cause i certainly didn't see it anywhere. i wasn't aware that the two humans with no understanding of good and evil were capable of using logic like Aristotle, Plato, and Socrates.

and ceasing to exist forever seems pretty eternal to me.
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#25 - Vandeekree (10/10/2016) [-]
It was said that God created them in his image. I find it hard to interpret that verse to mean the physical image sense God doesn't seem to have one. The image seems to be that we are being with complex minds like God's. He can think and understand and aren't just mechanical reactionary creatures like an animal and perhaps like an angel who is only a servant and is said to be lesser than a human once in heaven.

But ceasing to exist isn't a punishment. It's just nothing. You feel no pleasure, no pain. Are you saying it's wrong for a being that created life to remove that life painlessly from existence?
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#26 - thevioletlightning (10/10/2016) [-]
if that's the case then why did they have no knowledge of good and evil to begin with?

and that's the thing. how do you know it's painless? many of the nonbelievers will probably have loved ones in paradise that they will never see again, and they'll know that when they're sent to hell just before they're erased from existence. that in and of itself is torturous.
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#27 - Vandeekree (10/10/2016) [-]
Because to have knowledge of good and evil is to have free will. And if you have free will, then being in a paradise where you are happy and unaware you are naked, feel no shame or any negative feelings, then you are barred from sinning. You won't steal if you have everything you could ever want. You won't murder if you don't have the ability to consider other people a threat and worry and stress over them stealing from you or murdering you.

Free will, in my definition, requires two things. One is the ability to comprehend right and wrong and the second is the ability to do those things physically. If you have all your wants taken care of then you don't have free will nor understanding of good and evil. This understand of the forbidden fruit is that it not only changes the nature of the human brain, but that it also consists of the change in circumstance i. e. the move out of the paradise and into the harsher world we know today where gain requires work.

It's only torture when you don't understand. When you die, if you are given clear vision of everything that happened then you will suddenly understand why you were sent to hell and that you deserve it. You will be granted omnipotence or near to omnipotence. This will let you realize that you got your fair time with those loved ones and you squandered it. And now that that time is up then you will be removed from existence. Perhaps even from time itself, made to never have existed sense God created and is in control of time, but that's just speculation on my part and has no real foundation in the bible.

But how can someone be sad over something they know they deserve? They might regret earning the thing the earned and wish they had done differently but certainly they wouldn't be able feel sadness when they know it is all fair and just.
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#28 - thevioletlightning (10/10/2016) [-]
the fact that you think no one would be heartbroken when they find out that they are never going to see their loved ones again is, to me, naive. you assume that being granted omniscience (not omnipotence as you said, as that deals with how much power one has over the universe, not how much one knows) will take away any emotions they feel towards those people, that it will take away any bonds they had with them. they may understand, but they will still feel sorrow.
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#29 - Vandeekree (10/10/2016) [-]
Sorry, I see them as the same thing as having the ability to see everything is virtually the same as having the power to control everything. But that's another debate and you're right that omniscience would be a better word.

It's not that knowing would take away the feelings, it would be that those feelings would be clearly handled. It would be like a grandma dying of old age. You understand that it was going to happen and there is none of the shock, just understanding. But sorrow is not always bad. Perhaps there is regret but perhaps not. Perhaps, should it turn out that sorrow is considered a punishment then the person is simply made to not exist without comprehending it's about to happen. There would be no going to hell really as they would appear there just as it was destroyed.
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#30 - thevioletlightning (10/10/2016) [-]
i just don't think it's right to erase an existence like that, even if the person was a monster in life. sending someone to purgatory to pay off their debt for the sins they committed would be one thing, but torturing them for a millennia and then wiping them from the face of creation just doesn't seem right to me.
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#33 - Vandeekree (10/10/2016) [-]
It doesn't allow anymore replies so I have to reply here.

But the whims of an infinite being are hard to understand. It seems to me he wants people to choose him instead of him forcing it. So he put us in the balanced perfectly fair world so we could choose without being swayed to far to one side or the other.

Also, the bible says the Earth is a sphere, the flat Earth belief is actually a myth. And, believe it or not, there is plenty of evidence of God's existence and which religion is right. It is simply the laziness of people or their bitterness towards the idea of God(usually a warped idea with misconceptions from my experience) that keeps them from accepting what they study. God made this world fair. It is people that make things unfair by hurting one another and it is the love of pleasure and hate of work that keep people from finding which religion is true.
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#34 - thevioletlightning (10/10/2016) [-]
all of the "evidence" that people have tried to convince me with can just as easily be attributed to any number of other deities worshiped by humans.
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#31 - Vandeekree (10/10/2016) [-]
It wouldn't be right for a human to do it. But an all seeing God has every right. He is all that is keeping us in existence at every moment. We leech off his power because he allows it. It could be argued that if he didn't concentrate on keeping us in existence then there would be nothing keeping us around and we would simply vanish.

Again, no offence, but I don't think you understand how much authority God has if you say it's not right for him to do anything. He created morality. It's only by his good nature that that morality is also good. And he can only be good because a being of unlimited power would want for nothing, and so have no reason to be evil. But if he were good he could want to spread goodness among those who could appreciate it, aka, being with free will like his.
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#32 - thevioletlightning (10/10/2016) [-]
i fully understand how much authority he supposedly has. and that's the part that i'm not okay with. he has all this power, so why does he care if people worship him or not? why does he deem it necessary to erase people from existence if they simply didn't think there was enough evidence to prove he existed? is he that egotistical? is he that desperate? "oh, you didn't think a book written by desert dwellers who thought the earth was a flat slab with a glass dome around it 2000 years before you were born was sufficient evidence of me, a being who can do anything it wants and could have shown itself to the world at any time with minimal effort? well, too bad, you no longer get to exist because for an insignificant period of time compared to the infinitesimal amount of time that will exist you didn't worship me." seems real fair to us humans.
#17 - They do. They broke logic. It is only logical that morality is…  [+] (25 replies) 10/10/2016 on hate 0
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#18 - thevioletlightning (10/10/2016) [-]
morality is absolutely subjective. that's why we have cultures on this planet that think it's okay to fuck children where others find it absolutely abhorrent. and all of the rest of this argument assumes a god exists to begin with. there's not even enough evidence to say there is a god in the first place.
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#19 - Vandeekree (10/10/2016) [-]
Only subjective morality is subjective. Of course it goes without saying but that means it's opinion based and has no foundation or logic to it. Anything can be right if only being convinced it's right makes it so. The only way it could be true morality is if it were created or at least explained to us by something omnipotent enough to know.

And there is very strong evidence for the existence of God. Overwhelming in fact. Have you studied at all into Christian apologetic?
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#20 - thevioletlightning (10/10/2016) [-]
i was a Christian since birth, but i saw over time that the god of Christianity was barbaric and hypocritical. if you've read the story of Genesis, you'd see that god put two people who literally could not tell the difference between right and wrong in a garden, and put a tree with forbidden fruit within their grasp and told them not to eat it, and when they did anyway, he punished them, despite knowing they didn't know any better. he could have put the tree somewhere else, and let the two humans live in paradise forever, but he chose to put it there and give them the opportunity to be tricked into eating it. it's clear to me he wanted them to be sinners.
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#21 - Vandeekree (10/10/2016) [-]
I'm not trying to be insulting here but it sounds to me like you haven't studied very deeply.

The story of Adam and Eve and the fruit is exactly as you said. God giving man and woman paradise. But he also gave them a choice out of that. A choice to have free will.

That was the warning. He told them to trust in him that they had paradise and that it would stay that way so long as they trusted him. That's all he wanted. But they failed when they decided they wanted the knowledge of good and evil from the fruit. And once they knew, like a child turning to an adult, they became accountable.

God did not punish them, he warned them against a choice while still giving them that choice. He could have dominated them and kept the ability to ever understand good and evil away, but that wouldn't be giving them free will. And so if you see your free will and understanding as a punishment than so be it. But in reality, it's only a consequence that opens the ability for us to be more like God but also accountable for our sin.

Did I explain that well enough?
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#22 - thevioletlightning (10/10/2016) [-]
if they had no knowledge of good and evil, then how exactly could they know that trusting the serpent was wrong and trusting god was right? in what world does it make sense that two adults with the mental capacity of children would not fall victim to a trick?

and the Christian god DID punish them. he made it so the woman would feel excruciating pain during childbirth and the man would have to toil for the rest of his days to feed his family, when they couldn't even know what they had done was "wrong" when they did it.

all i know is it's ultimately infinite punishment for a finite crime
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#35 - Vandeekree (10/10/2016) [-]
No more room so replying here again.

But it cannot. The bible has more prophesies that can be third party shown to have come true, detailed and more specifically stated than any other holy book. If you study it you will find that it is flawless. No contradictions and no flaws. You can google around and find plenty of people proposing flaws but they can all be explained easily, most aren't contradictions and fewer still are even in context.

There are also many philosophical arguments. If you keep up with philosophy, religiously supporting ideas are dominating the aging and unchanging atheist views. The teleological argument and ontological arguments are stronger than they have ever been. I recommend the book "Reasonable Faith" by William Lane Craig. He explains these the best I have yet found.

Again, not to insult, but I think the only reason you think there isn't good evidence for religion is because you haven't looked very hard and because it is in the cultural "cool" to be post modern.
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#36 - thevioletlightning (10/10/2016) [-]
i choose not to decide. over 3000 deities worshiped by our species, the probability that i'll choose correctly is ridiculously low, so why even place a bet? that's my philosophy on the issue. you can believe in your prophecies if you want to, every prophecy comes true at some point, if you make it vague enough, and/or base it off of what has happened in the past, since history tends to repeat itself.
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#37 - Vandeekree (10/10/2016) [-]
The probability if you randomly choose is low. But it's not random. You use logic to choose by comparing every religion you can find. And I can tell you as I have done it(of course I'm still doing it, I don't claim to be a total expert on every religion yet) that Christianity stands out in every way.

Doesn't it bother you not to know? Isn't the purpose of life to figure out the purpose of life? Are you not the least bit worried you don't know what's truly right or wrong and are refusing to search and choose to assume things without checking for yourself?
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#38 - thevioletlightning (10/10/2016) [-]
not really. ignorance is bliss. if knowing helps you sleep at night that's fine, but i don't feel a need to know.
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#39 - Vandeekree (10/10/2016) [-]
To be honest, that sounds like pride talking. And that sounds like a very dangerous attitude to have about anything, not just religion. I hope in time your mind will change and you will realize you are an intelligent human being who would gain much from learning about the world around you.
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#40 - thevioletlightning (10/10/2016) [-]
whatever you say. i simply see no reason to need to know.
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#41 - Vandeekree (10/10/2016) [-]
And that's the apathy that I was talking about before.

How about this for a reason. If you don't do it you risk damnation from a religion, but if you do search the you might get heaven. So there's no possible downside to searching but a very large potential downside to not searching. It's only logical to intellectually search.
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#42 - thevioletlightning (10/10/2016) [-]
meh. like i said, i choose not to decide.
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#23 - Vandeekree (10/10/2016) [-]
They didn't know good and evil. But they had logic and were thinking beings. That's why God wanted them to just trust him that they had it good and it would be harder on them if they ate. But they decided otherwise. So of course he didn't punish them for it. He put the knowledge at their fingertips because that's free will. You don't have free will if you can't choose to do anything no matter how smart you are.

And it's the whole point that they did fall victim to the trick. They were going to because they didn't understand and thought having everything would be best. They got greedy and decided to go against the being who had given them everything beside the fruit. That's the whole message of the story. God gave us free will and understanding of good and evil and logic. And those things have consequences but they are arguably better than being ignorant in paradise.

It's to show that God wanted us to live in a perfect world but also wanted us to have free will. To demonstrate this he gave ignorant people the choice to have knowledge and they took it and thus we are the rational moral driven human being we are today. It's to show that there can't be free will and also forced paradise at the same time.

And the toils of life aren't a punishment, they are an opportunity to choose. It's part of the knowledge of good and evil. If you know of good and evil but are in no position to ever want to do evil then you don't have the choice really. The garden was a paradise but free will couldn't happen there as there is no motivation to choose anything but being a happy ignorant naked person.

Is that a better way of explaining it?

But what is the infinite punishment? Life is not infinite and hell is not infinite. So what do you mean?

Is that a better way of explaining it?
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#24 - thevioletlightning (10/10/2016) [-]
oh, they had logic, which verse said that? cause i certainly didn't see it anywhere. i wasn't aware that the two humans with no understanding of good and evil were capable of using logic like Aristotle, Plato, and Socrates.

and ceasing to exist forever seems pretty eternal to me.
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#25 - Vandeekree (10/10/2016) [-]
It was said that God created them in his image. I find it hard to interpret that verse to mean the physical image sense God doesn't seem to have one. The image seems to be that we are being with complex minds like God's. He can think and understand and aren't just mechanical reactionary creatures like an animal and perhaps like an angel who is only a servant and is said to be lesser than a human once in heaven.

But ceasing to exist isn't a punishment. It's just nothing. You feel no pleasure, no pain. Are you saying it's wrong for a being that created life to remove that life painlessly from existence?
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#26 - thevioletlightning (10/10/2016) [-]
if that's the case then why did they have no knowledge of good and evil to begin with?

and that's the thing. how do you know it's painless? many of the nonbelievers will probably have loved ones in paradise that they will never see again, and they'll know that when they're sent to hell just before they're erased from existence. that in and of itself is torturous.
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#27 - Vandeekree (10/10/2016) [-]
Because to have knowledge of good and evil is to have free will. And if you have free will, then being in a paradise where you are happy and unaware you are naked, feel no shame or any negative feelings, then you are barred from sinning. You won't steal if you have everything you could ever want. You won't murder if you don't have the ability to consider other people a threat and worry and stress over them stealing from you or murdering you.

Free will, in my definition, requires two things. One is the ability to comprehend right and wrong and the second is the ability to do those things physically. If you have all your wants taken care of then you don't have free will nor understanding of good and evil. This understand of the forbidden fruit is that it not only changes the nature of the human brain, but that it also consists of the change in circumstance i. e. the move out of the paradise and into the harsher world we know today where gain requires work.

It's only torture when you don't understand. When you die, if you are given clear vision of everything that happened then you will suddenly understand why you were sent to hell and that you deserve it. You will be granted omnipotence or near to omnipotence. This will let you realize that you got your fair time with those loved ones and you squandered it. And now that that time is up then you will be removed from existence. Perhaps even from time itself, made to never have existed sense God created and is in control of time, but that's just speculation on my part and has no real foundation in the bible.

But how can someone be sad over something they know they deserve? They might regret earning the thing the earned and wish they had done differently but certainly they wouldn't be able feel sadness when they know it is all fair and just.
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#28 - thevioletlightning (10/10/2016) [-]
the fact that you think no one would be heartbroken when they find out that they are never going to see their loved ones again is, to me, naive. you assume that being granted omniscience (not omnipotence as you said, as that deals with how much power one has over the universe, not how much one knows) will take away any emotions they feel towards those people, that it will take away any bonds they had with them. they may understand, but they will still feel sorrow.
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#29 - Vandeekree (10/10/2016) [-]
Sorry, I see them as the same thing as having the ability to see everything is virtually the same as having the power to control everything. But that's another debate and you're right that omniscience would be a better word.

It's not that knowing would take away the feelings, it would be that those feelings would be clearly handled. It would be like a grandma dying of old age. You understand that it was going to happen and there is none of the shock, just understanding. But sorrow is not always bad. Perhaps there is regret but perhaps not. Perhaps, should it turn out that sorrow is considered a punishment then the person is simply made to not exist without comprehending it's about to happen. There would be no going to hell really as they would appear there just as it was destroyed.
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#30 - thevioletlightning (10/10/2016) [-]
i just don't think it's right to erase an existence like that, even if the person was a monster in life. sending someone to purgatory to pay off their debt for the sins they committed would be one thing, but torturing them for a millennia and then wiping them from the face of creation just doesn't seem right to me.
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#33 - Vandeekree (10/10/2016) [-]
It doesn't allow anymore replies so I have to reply here.

But the whims of an infinite being are hard to understand. It seems to me he wants people to choose him instead of him forcing it. So he put us in the balanced perfectly fair world so we could choose without being swayed to far to one side or the other.

Also, the bible says the Earth is a sphere, the flat Earth belief is actually a myth. And, believe it or not, there is plenty of evidence of God's existence and which religion is right. It is simply the laziness of people or their bitterness towards the idea of God(usually a warped idea with misconceptions from my experience) that keeps them from accepting what they study. God made this world fair. It is people that make things unfair by hurting one another and it is the love of pleasure and hate of work that keep people from finding which religion is true.
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#34 - thevioletlightning (10/10/2016) [-]
all of the "evidence" that people have tried to convince me with can just as easily be attributed to any number of other deities worshiped by humans.
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#31 - Vandeekree (10/10/2016) [-]
It wouldn't be right for a human to do it. But an all seeing God has every right. He is all that is keeping us in existence at every moment. We leech off his power because he allows it. It could be argued that if he didn't concentrate on keeping us in existence then there would be nothing keeping us around and we would simply vanish.

Again, no offence, but I don't think you understand how much authority God has if you say it's not right for him to do anything. He created morality. It's only by his good nature that that morality is also good. And he can only be good because a being of unlimited power would want for nothing, and so have no reason to be evil. But if he were good he could want to spread goodness among those who could appreciate it, aka, being with free will like his.
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#32 - thevioletlightning (10/10/2016) [-]
i fully understand how much authority he supposedly has. and that's the part that i'm not okay with. he has all this power, so why does he care if people worship him or not? why does he deem it necessary to erase people from existence if they simply didn't think there was enough evidence to prove he existed? is he that egotistical? is he that desperate? "oh, you didn't think a book written by desert dwellers who thought the earth was a flat slab with a glass dome around it 2000 years before you were born was sufficient evidence of me, a being who can do anything it wants and could have shown itself to the world at any time with minimal effort? well, too bad, you no longer get to exist because for an insignificant period of time compared to the infinitesimal amount of time that will exist you didn't worship me." seems real fair to us humans.
#15 - Creating creatures, giving them free will to live their life h…  [+] (27 replies) 10/10/2016 on hate -1
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#16 - thevioletlightning (10/10/2016) [-]
and what about the ones who lived their lives justly, but chose not to believe? what of them? oh, that's right, they get the same treatment as a person who didn't believe but lived a life of crime. millennia of torture, followed by nothingness. and yet a man who leads a life of crime and immorality can get into paradise no questions asked simply for believing in the correct deity. let's face it, your god is worthless trash, a tyrant who demands you worship him or he erases you from existence after torturing you.
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#17 - Vandeekree (10/10/2016) [-]
They do. They broke logic. It is only logical that morality is absolute. Relative morality is meaningless and doesn't exist in any meaningful way. And the only source for absolute morality is a being who can see all the make such a judgement. And the only omnipotent being we know of would be a God. So then you are left with figuring out which religion is the true speaking of God.

You see, in order to reject God a person must either be willingly blind and following the pleasures of life instead of serving or they must reject out of spite because of a misunderstanding between what they like and dislike and what is actually right and wrong.

Though the punishments of hell are relative. It is mentioned that those who were more evil than others will be punished more. So no, someone who went to hell but wasn't as a criminal would be punished considerably less. Perhaps not at all and simply removed from existence. You see there are two types of sin. Sinning against the law God made and the single sin of rejecting the belief in God.

The punishment of hell is relative to the sins and the rejection of heaven is from the single act of never accepting God.

As for a tyrant? Yes. A vain tyrant. And he has every right to be as he created all we see and are and gave us free will to reject him or not. Perhaps you compare him to a man who rules over other men and abuses them. But God is not a man. He sees all and thus does what is fair because he has nothing to gain nor lose from hurting us. He created out of the love of wanting sentient beings to exist and to choose him.
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#18 - thevioletlightning (10/10/2016) [-]
morality is absolutely subjective. that's why we have cultures on this planet that think it's okay to fuck children where others find it absolutely abhorrent. and all of the rest of this argument assumes a god exists to begin with. there's not even enough evidence to say there is a god in the first place.
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#19 - Vandeekree (10/10/2016) [-]
Only subjective morality is subjective. Of course it goes without saying but that means it's opinion based and has no foundation or logic to it. Anything can be right if only being convinced it's right makes it so. The only way it could be true morality is if it were created or at least explained to us by something omnipotent enough to know.

And there is very strong evidence for the existence of God. Overwhelming in fact. Have you studied at all into Christian apologetic?
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#20 - thevioletlightning (10/10/2016) [-]
i was a Christian since birth, but i saw over time that the god of Christianity was barbaric and hypocritical. if you've read the story of Genesis, you'd see that god put two people who literally could not tell the difference between right and wrong in a garden, and put a tree with forbidden fruit within their grasp and told them not to eat it, and when they did anyway, he punished them, despite knowing they didn't know any better. he could have put the tree somewhere else, and let the two humans live in paradise forever, but he chose to put it there and give them the opportunity to be tricked into eating it. it's clear to me he wanted them to be sinners.
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#21 - Vandeekree (10/10/2016) [-]
I'm not trying to be insulting here but it sounds to me like you haven't studied very deeply.

The story of Adam and Eve and the fruit is exactly as you said. God giving man and woman paradise. But he also gave them a choice out of that. A choice to have free will.

That was the warning. He told them to trust in him that they had paradise and that it would stay that way so long as they trusted him. That's all he wanted. But they failed when they decided they wanted the knowledge of good and evil from the fruit. And once they knew, like a child turning to an adult, they became accountable.

God did not punish them, he warned them against a choice while still giving them that choice. He could have dominated them and kept the ability to ever understand good and evil away, but that wouldn't be giving them free will. And so if you see your free will and understanding as a punishment than so be it. But in reality, it's only a consequence that opens the ability for us to be more like God but also accountable for our sin.

Did I explain that well enough?
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#22 - thevioletlightning (10/10/2016) [-]
if they had no knowledge of good and evil, then how exactly could they know that trusting the serpent was wrong and trusting god was right? in what world does it make sense that two adults with the mental capacity of children would not fall victim to a trick?

and the Christian god DID punish them. he made it so the woman would feel excruciating pain during childbirth and the man would have to toil for the rest of his days to feed his family, when they couldn't even know what they had done was "wrong" when they did it.

all i know is it's ultimately infinite punishment for a finite crime
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#35 - Vandeekree (10/10/2016) [-]
No more room so replying here again.

But it cannot. The bible has more prophesies that can be third party shown to have come true, detailed and more specifically stated than any other holy book. If you study it you will find that it is flawless. No contradictions and no flaws. You can google around and find plenty of people proposing flaws but they can all be explained easily, most aren't contradictions and fewer still are even in context.

There are also many philosophical arguments. If you keep up with philosophy, religiously supporting ideas are dominating the aging and unchanging atheist views. The teleological argument and ontological arguments are stronger than they have ever been. I recommend the book "Reasonable Faith" by William Lane Craig. He explains these the best I have yet found.

Again, not to insult, but I think the only reason you think there isn't good evidence for religion is because you haven't looked very hard and because it is in the cultural "cool" to be post modern.
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#36 - thevioletlightning (10/10/2016) [-]
i choose not to decide. over 3000 deities worshiped by our species, the probability that i'll choose correctly is ridiculously low, so why even place a bet? that's my philosophy on the issue. you can believe in your prophecies if you want to, every prophecy comes true at some point, if you make it vague enough, and/or base it off of what has happened in the past, since history tends to repeat itself.
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#37 - Vandeekree (10/10/2016) [-]
The probability if you randomly choose is low. But it's not random. You use logic to choose by comparing every religion you can find. And I can tell you as I have done it(of course I'm still doing it, I don't claim to be a total expert on every religion yet) that Christianity stands out in every way.

Doesn't it bother you not to know? Isn't the purpose of life to figure out the purpose of life? Are you not the least bit worried you don't know what's truly right or wrong and are refusing to search and choose to assume things without checking for yourself?
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#38 - thevioletlightning (10/10/2016) [-]
not really. ignorance is bliss. if knowing helps you sleep at night that's fine, but i don't feel a need to know.
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#39 - Vandeekree (10/10/2016) [-]
To be honest, that sounds like pride talking. And that sounds like a very dangerous attitude to have about anything, not just religion. I hope in time your mind will change and you will realize you are an intelligent human being who would gain much from learning about the world around you.
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#40 - thevioletlightning (10/10/2016) [-]
whatever you say. i simply see no reason to need to know.
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#41 - Vandeekree (10/10/2016) [-]
And that's the apathy that I was talking about before.

How about this for a reason. If you don't do it you risk damnation from a religion, but if you do search the you might get heaven. So there's no possible downside to searching but a very large potential downside to not searching. It's only logical to intellectually search.
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#42 - thevioletlightning (10/10/2016) [-]
meh. like i said, i choose not to decide.
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#23 - Vandeekree (10/10/2016) [-]
They didn't know good and evil. But they had logic and were thinking beings. That's why God wanted them to just trust him that they had it good and it would be harder on them if they ate. But they decided otherwise. So of course he didn't punish them for it. He put the knowledge at their fingertips because that's free will. You don't have free will if you can't choose to do anything no matter how smart you are.

And it's the whole point that they did fall victim to the trick. They were going to because they didn't understand and thought having everything would be best. They got greedy and decided to go against the being who had given them everything beside the fruit. That's the whole message of the story. God gave us free will and understanding of good and evil and logic. And those things have consequences but they are arguably better than being ignorant in paradise.

It's to show that God wanted us to live in a perfect world but also wanted us to have free will. To demonstrate this he gave ignorant people the choice to have knowledge and they took it and thus we are the rational moral driven human being we are today. It's to show that there can't be free will and also forced paradise at the same time.

And the toils of life aren't a punishment, they are an opportunity to choose. It's part of the knowledge of good and evil. If you know of good and evil but are in no position to ever want to do evil then you don't have the choice really. The garden was a paradise but free will couldn't happen there as there is no motivation to choose anything but being a happy ignorant naked person.

Is that a better way of explaining it?

But what is the infinite punishment? Life is not infinite and hell is not infinite. So what do you mean?

Is that a better way of explaining it?
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#24 - thevioletlightning (10/10/2016) [-]
oh, they had logic, which verse said that? cause i certainly didn't see it anywhere. i wasn't aware that the two humans with no understanding of good and evil were capable of using logic like Aristotle, Plato, and Socrates.

and ceasing to exist forever seems pretty eternal to me.
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#25 - Vandeekree (10/10/2016) [-]
It was said that God created them in his image. I find it hard to interpret that verse to mean the physical image sense God doesn't seem to have one. The image seems to be that we are being with complex minds like God's. He can think and understand and aren't just mechanical reactionary creatures like an animal and perhaps like an angel who is only a servant and is said to be lesser than a human once in heaven.

But ceasing to exist isn't a punishment. It's just nothing. You feel no pleasure, no pain. Are you saying it's wrong for a being that created life to remove that life painlessly from existence?
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#26 - thevioletlightning (10/10/2016) [-]
if that's the case then why did they have no knowledge of good and evil to begin with?

and that's the thing. how do you know it's painless? many of the nonbelievers will probably have loved ones in paradise that they will never see again, and they'll know that when they're sent to hell just before they're erased from existence. that in and of itself is torturous.
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#27 - Vandeekree (10/10/2016) [-]
Because to have knowledge of good and evil is to have free will. And if you have free will, then being in a paradise where you are happy and unaware you are naked, feel no shame or any negative feelings, then you are barred from sinning. You won't steal if you have everything you could ever want. You won't murder if you don't have the ability to consider other people a threat and worry and stress over them stealing from you or murdering you.

Free will, in my definition, requires two things. One is the ability to comprehend right and wrong and the second is the ability to do those things physically. If you have all your wants taken care of then you don't have free will nor understanding of good and evil. This understand of the forbidden fruit is that it not only changes the nature of the human brain, but that it also consists of the change in circumstance i. e. the move out of the paradise and into the harsher world we know today where gain requires work.

It's only torture when you don't understand. When you die, if you are given clear vision of everything that happened then you will suddenly understand why you were sent to hell and that you deserve it. You will be granted omnipotence or near to omnipotence. This will let you realize that you got your fair time with those loved ones and you squandered it. And now that that time is up then you will be removed from existence. Perhaps even from time itself, made to never have existed sense God created and is in control of time, but that's just speculation on my part and has no real foundation in the bible.

But how can someone be sad over something they know they deserve? They might regret earning the thing the earned and wish they had done differently but certainly they wouldn't be able feel sadness when they know it is all fair and just.
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#28 - thevioletlightning (10/10/2016) [-]
the fact that you think no one would be heartbroken when they find out that they are never going to see their loved ones again is, to me, naive. you assume that being granted omniscience (not omnipotence as you said, as that deals with how much power one has over the universe, not how much one knows) will take away any emotions they feel towards those people, that it will take away any bonds they had with them. they may understand, but they will still feel sorrow.
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#29 - Vandeekree (10/10/2016) [-]
Sorry, I see them as the same thing as having the ability to see everything is virtually the same as having the power to control everything. But that's another debate and you're right that omniscience would be a better word.

It's not that knowing would take away the feelings, it would be that those feelings would be clearly handled. It would be like a grandma dying of old age. You understand that it was going to happen and there is none of the shock, just understanding. But sorrow is not always bad. Perhaps there is regret but perhaps not. Perhaps, should it turn out that sorrow is considered a punishment then the person is simply made to not exist without comprehending it's about to happen. There would be no going to hell really as they would appear there just as it was destroyed.
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#30 - thevioletlightning (10/10/2016) [-]
i just don't think it's right to erase an existence like that, even if the person was a monster in life. sending someone to purgatory to pay off their debt for the sins they committed would be one thing, but torturing them for a millennia and then wiping them from the face of creation just doesn't seem right to me.
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#33 - Vandeekree (10/10/2016) [-]
It doesn't allow anymore replies so I have to reply here.

But the whims of an infinite being are hard to understand. It seems to me he wants people to choose him instead of him forcing it. So he put us in the balanced perfectly fair world so we could choose without being swayed to far to one side or the other.

Also, the bible says the Earth is a sphere, the flat Earth belief is actually a myth. And, believe it or not, there is plenty of evidence of God's existence and which religion is right. It is simply the laziness of people or their bitterness towards the idea of God(usually a warped idea with misconceptions from my experience) that keeps them from accepting what they study. God made this world fair. It is people that make things unfair by hurting one another and it is the love of pleasure and hate of work that keep people from finding which religion is true.
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#34 - thevioletlightning (10/10/2016) [-]
all of the "evidence" that people have tried to convince me with can just as easily be attributed to any number of other deities worshiped by humans.
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#31 - Vandeekree (10/10/2016) [-]
It wouldn't be right for a human to do it. But an all seeing God has every right. He is all that is keeping us in existence at every moment. We leech off his power because he allows it. It could be argued that if he didn't concentrate on keeping us in existence then there would be nothing keeping us around and we would simply vanish.

Again, no offence, but I don't think you understand how much authority God has if you say it's not right for him to do anything. He created morality. It's only by his good nature that that morality is also good. And he can only be good because a being of unlimited power would want for nothing, and so have no reason to be evil. But if he were good he could want to spread goodness among those who could appreciate it, aka, being with free will like his.
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#32 - thevioletlightning (10/10/2016) [-]
i fully understand how much authority he supposedly has. and that's the part that i'm not okay with. he has all this power, so why does he care if people worship him or not? why does he deem it necessary to erase people from existence if they simply didn't think there was enough evidence to prove he existed? is he that egotistical? is he that desperate? "oh, you didn't think a book written by desert dwellers who thought the earth was a flat slab with a glass dome around it 2000 years before you were born was sufficient evidence of me, a being who can do anything it wants and could have shown itself to the world at any time with minimal effort? well, too bad, you no longer get to exist because for an insignificant period of time compared to the infinitesimal amount of time that will exist you didn't worship me." seems real fair to us humans.
#13 - It's not eternal. You stay there suffering for your sins that …  [+] (29 replies) 10/10/2016 on hate 0
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#14 - thevioletlightning (10/10/2016) [-]
because that totally sounds merciful. -_-
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#15 - Vandeekree (10/10/2016) [-]
Creating creatures, giving them free will to live their life how they want, letting them choose to be good and embrace morality or reject it and punishing those who reject what is good before returning them to nothing and rewarding those who chose morality with eternal reward?

That sounds not just merciful but generously so.
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#16 - thevioletlightning (10/10/2016) [-]
and what about the ones who lived their lives justly, but chose not to believe? what of them? oh, that's right, they get the same treatment as a person who didn't believe but lived a life of crime. millennia of torture, followed by nothingness. and yet a man who leads a life of crime and immorality can get into paradise no questions asked simply for believing in the correct deity. let's face it, your god is worthless trash, a tyrant who demands you worship him or he erases you from existence after torturing you.
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#17 - Vandeekree (10/10/2016) [-]
They do. They broke logic. It is only logical that morality is absolute. Relative morality is meaningless and doesn't exist in any meaningful way. And the only source for absolute morality is a being who can see all the make such a judgement. And the only omnipotent being we know of would be a God. So then you are left with figuring out which religion is the true speaking of God.

You see, in order to reject God a person must either be willingly blind and following the pleasures of life instead of serving or they must reject out of spite because of a misunderstanding between what they like and dislike and what is actually right and wrong.

Though the punishments of hell are relative. It is mentioned that those who were more evil than others will be punished more. So no, someone who went to hell but wasn't as a criminal would be punished considerably less. Perhaps not at all and simply removed from existence. You see there are two types of sin. Sinning against the law God made and the single sin of rejecting the belief in God.

The punishment of hell is relative to the sins and the rejection of heaven is from the single act of never accepting God.

As for a tyrant? Yes. A vain tyrant. And he has every right to be as he created all we see and are and gave us free will to reject him or not. Perhaps you compare him to a man who rules over other men and abuses them. But God is not a man. He sees all and thus does what is fair because he has nothing to gain nor lose from hurting us. He created out of the love of wanting sentient beings to exist and to choose him.
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#18 - thevioletlightning (10/10/2016) [-]
morality is absolutely subjective. that's why we have cultures on this planet that think it's okay to fuck children where others find it absolutely abhorrent. and all of the rest of this argument assumes a god exists to begin with. there's not even enough evidence to say there is a god in the first place.
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#19 - Vandeekree (10/10/2016) [-]
Only subjective morality is subjective. Of course it goes without saying but that means it's opinion based and has no foundation or logic to it. Anything can be right if only being convinced it's right makes it so. The only way it could be true morality is if it were created or at least explained to us by something omnipotent enough to know.

And there is very strong evidence for the existence of God. Overwhelming in fact. Have you studied at all into Christian apologetic?
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#20 - thevioletlightning (10/10/2016) [-]
i was a Christian since birth, but i saw over time that the god of Christianity was barbaric and hypocritical. if you've read the story of Genesis, you'd see that god put two people who literally could not tell the difference between right and wrong in a garden, and put a tree with forbidden fruit within their grasp and told them not to eat it, and when they did anyway, he punished them, despite knowing they didn't know any better. he could have put the tree somewhere else, and let the two humans live in paradise forever, but he chose to put it there and give them the opportunity to be tricked into eating it. it's clear to me he wanted them to be sinners.
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#21 - Vandeekree (10/10/2016) [-]
I'm not trying to be insulting here but it sounds to me like you haven't studied very deeply.

The story of Adam and Eve and the fruit is exactly as you said. God giving man and woman paradise. But he also gave them a choice out of that. A choice to have free will.

That was the warning. He told them to trust in him that they had paradise and that it would stay that way so long as they trusted him. That's all he wanted. But they failed when they decided they wanted the knowledge of good and evil from the fruit. And once they knew, like a child turning to an adult, they became accountable.

God did not punish them, he warned them against a choice while still giving them that choice. He could have dominated them and kept the ability to ever understand good and evil away, but that wouldn't be giving them free will. And so if you see your free will and understanding as a punishment than so be it. But in reality, it's only a consequence that opens the ability for us to be more like God but also accountable for our sin.

Did I explain that well enough?
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#22 - thevioletlightning (10/10/2016) [-]
if they had no knowledge of good and evil, then how exactly could they know that trusting the serpent was wrong and trusting god was right? in what world does it make sense that two adults with the mental capacity of children would not fall victim to a trick?

and the Christian god DID punish them. he made it so the woman would feel excruciating pain during childbirth and the man would have to toil for the rest of his days to feed his family, when they couldn't even know what they had done was "wrong" when they did it.

all i know is it's ultimately infinite punishment for a finite crime
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#35 - Vandeekree (10/10/2016) [-]
No more room so replying here again.

But it cannot. The bible has more prophesies that can be third party shown to have come true, detailed and more specifically stated than any other holy book. If you study it you will find that it is flawless. No contradictions and no flaws. You can google around and find plenty of people proposing flaws but they can all be explained easily, most aren't contradictions and fewer still are even in context.

There are also many philosophical arguments. If you keep up with philosophy, religiously supporting ideas are dominating the aging and unchanging atheist views. The teleological argument and ontological arguments are stronger than they have ever been. I recommend the book "Reasonable Faith" by William Lane Craig. He explains these the best I have yet found.

Again, not to insult, but I think the only reason you think there isn't good evidence for religion is because you haven't looked very hard and because it is in the cultural "cool" to be post modern.
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#36 - thevioletlightning (10/10/2016) [-]
i choose not to decide. over 3000 deities worshiped by our species, the probability that i'll choose correctly is ridiculously low, so why even place a bet? that's my philosophy on the issue. you can believe in your prophecies if you want to, every prophecy comes true at some point, if you make it vague enough, and/or base it off of what has happened in the past, since history tends to repeat itself.
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#37 - Vandeekree (10/10/2016) [-]
The probability if you randomly choose is low. But it's not random. You use logic to choose by comparing every religion you can find. And I can tell you as I have done it(of course I'm still doing it, I don't claim to be a total expert on every religion yet) that Christianity stands out in every way.

Doesn't it bother you not to know? Isn't the purpose of life to figure out the purpose of life? Are you not the least bit worried you don't know what's truly right or wrong and are refusing to search and choose to assume things without checking for yourself?
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#38 - thevioletlightning (10/10/2016) [-]
not really. ignorance is bliss. if knowing helps you sleep at night that's fine, but i don't feel a need to know.
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#39 - Vandeekree (10/10/2016) [-]
To be honest, that sounds like pride talking. And that sounds like a very dangerous attitude to have about anything, not just religion. I hope in time your mind will change and you will realize you are an intelligent human being who would gain much from learning about the world around you.
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#40 - thevioletlightning (10/10/2016) [-]
whatever you say. i simply see no reason to need to know.
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#41 - Vandeekree (10/10/2016) [-]
And that's the apathy that I was talking about before.

How about this for a reason. If you don't do it you risk damnation from a religion, but if you do search the you might get heaven. So there's no possible downside to searching but a very large potential downside to not searching. It's only logical to intellectually search.
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#42 - thevioletlightning (10/10/2016) [-]
meh. like i said, i choose not to decide.
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#23 - Vandeekree (10/10/2016) [-]
They didn't know good and evil. But they had logic and were thinking beings. That's why God wanted them to just trust him that they had it good and it would be harder on them if they ate. But they decided otherwise. So of course he didn't punish them for it. He put the knowledge at their fingertips because that's free will. You don't have free will if you can't choose to do anything no matter how smart you are.

And it's the whole point that they did fall victim to the trick. They were going to because they didn't understand and thought having everything would be best. They got greedy and decided to go against the being who had given them everything beside the fruit. That's the whole message of the story. God gave us free will and understanding of good and evil and logic. And those things have consequences but they are arguably better than being ignorant in paradise.

It's to show that God wanted us to live in a perfect world but also wanted us to have free will. To demonstrate this he gave ignorant people the choice to have knowledge and they took it and thus we are the rational moral driven human being we are today. It's to show that there can't be free will and also forced paradise at the same time.

And the toils of life aren't a punishment, they are an opportunity to choose. It's part of the knowledge of good and evil. If you know of good and evil but are in no position to ever want to do evil then you don't have the choice really. The garden was a paradise but free will couldn't happen there as there is no motivation to choose anything but being a happy ignorant naked person.

Is that a better way of explaining it?

But what is the infinite punishment? Life is not infinite and hell is not infinite. So what do you mean?

Is that a better way of explaining it?
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#24 - thevioletlightning (10/10/2016) [-]
oh, they had logic, which verse said that? cause i certainly didn't see it anywhere. i wasn't aware that the two humans with no understanding of good and evil were capable of using logic like Aristotle, Plato, and Socrates.

and ceasing to exist forever seems pretty eternal to me.
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#25 - Vandeekree (10/10/2016) [-]
It was said that God created them in his image. I find it hard to interpret that verse to mean the physical image sense God doesn't seem to have one. The image seems to be that we are being with complex minds like God's. He can think and understand and aren't just mechanical reactionary creatures like an animal and perhaps like an angel who is only a servant and is said to be lesser than a human once in heaven.

But ceasing to exist isn't a punishment. It's just nothing. You feel no pleasure, no pain. Are you saying it's wrong for a being that created life to remove that life painlessly from existence?
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#26 - thevioletlightning (10/10/2016) [-]
if that's the case then why did they have no knowledge of good and evil to begin with?

and that's the thing. how do you know it's painless? many of the nonbelievers will probably have loved ones in paradise that they will never see again, and they'll know that when they're sent to hell just before they're erased from existence. that in and of itself is torturous.
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#27 - Vandeekree (10/10/2016) [-]
Because to have knowledge of good and evil is to have free will. And if you have free will, then being in a paradise where you are happy and unaware you are naked, feel no shame or any negative feelings, then you are barred from sinning. You won't steal if you have everything you could ever want. You won't murder if you don't have the ability to consider other people a threat and worry and stress over them stealing from you or murdering you.

Free will, in my definition, requires two things. One is the ability to comprehend right and wrong and the second is the ability to do those things physically. If you have all your wants taken care of then you don't have free will nor understanding of good and evil. This understand of the forbidden fruit is that it not only changes the nature of the human brain, but that it also consists of the change in circumstance i. e. the move out of the paradise and into the harsher world we know today where gain requires work.

It's only torture when you don't understand. When you die, if you are given clear vision of everything that happened then you will suddenly understand why you were sent to hell and that you deserve it. You will be granted omnipotence or near to omnipotence. This will let you realize that you got your fair time with those loved ones and you squandered it. And now that that time is up then you will be removed from existence. Perhaps even from time itself, made to never have existed sense God created and is in control of time, but that's just speculation on my part and has no real foundation in the bible.

But how can someone be sad over something they know they deserve? They might regret earning the thing the earned and wish they had done differently but certainly they wouldn't be able feel sadness when they know it is all fair and just.
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#28 - thevioletlightning (10/10/2016) [-]
the fact that you think no one would be heartbroken when they find out that they are never going to see their loved ones again is, to me, naive. you assume that being granted omniscience (not omnipotence as you said, as that deals with how much power one has over the universe, not how much one knows) will take away any emotions they feel towards those people, that it will take away any bonds they had with them. they may understand, but they will still feel sorrow.
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#29 - Vandeekree (10/10/2016) [-]
Sorry, I see them as the same thing as having the ability to see everything is virtually the same as having the power to control everything. But that's another debate and you're right that omniscience would be a better word.

It's not that knowing would take away the feelings, it would be that those feelings would be clearly handled. It would be like a grandma dying of old age. You understand that it was going to happen and there is none of the shock, just understanding. But sorrow is not always bad. Perhaps there is regret but perhaps not. Perhaps, should it turn out that sorrow is considered a punishment then the person is simply made to not exist without comprehending it's about to happen. There would be no going to hell really as they would appear there just as it was destroyed.
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#30 - thevioletlightning (10/10/2016) [-]
i just don't think it's right to erase an existence like that, even if the person was a monster in life. sending someone to purgatory to pay off their debt for the sins they committed would be one thing, but torturing them for a millennia and then wiping them from the face of creation just doesn't seem right to me.
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#33 - Vandeekree (10/10/2016) [-]
It doesn't allow anymore replies so I have to reply here.

But the whims of an infinite being are hard to understand. It seems to me he wants people to choose him instead of him forcing it. So he put us in the balanced perfectly fair world so we could choose without being swayed to far to one side or the other.

Also, the bible says the Earth is a sphere, the flat Earth belief is actually a myth. And, believe it or not, there is plenty of evidence of God's existence and which religion is right. It is simply the laziness of people or their bitterness towards the idea of God(usually a warped idea with misconceptions from my experience) that keeps them from accepting what they study. God made this world fair. It is people that make things unfair by hurting one another and it is the love of pleasure and hate of work that keep people from finding which religion is true.
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#34 - thevioletlightning (10/10/2016) [-]
all of the "evidence" that people have tried to convince me with can just as easily be attributed to any number of other deities worshiped by humans.
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#31 - Vandeekree (10/10/2016) [-]
It wouldn't be right for a human to do it. But an all seeing God has every right. He is all that is keeping us in existence at every moment. We leech off his power because he allows it. It could be argued that if he didn't concentrate on keeping us in existence then there would be nothing keeping us around and we would simply vanish.

Again, no offence, but I don't think you understand how much authority God has if you say it's not right for him to do anything. He created morality. It's only by his good nature that that morality is also good. And he can only be good because a being of unlimited power would want for nothing, and so have no reason to be evil. But if he were good he could want to spread goodness among those who could appreciate it, aka, being with free will like his.
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#32 - thevioletlightning (10/10/2016) [-]
i fully understand how much authority he supposedly has. and that's the part that i'm not okay with. he has all this power, so why does he care if people worship him or not? why does he deem it necessary to erase people from existence if they simply didn't think there was enough evidence to prove he existed? is he that egotistical? is he that desperate? "oh, you didn't think a book written by desert dwellers who thought the earth was a flat slab with a glass dome around it 2000 years before you were born was sufficient evidence of me, a being who can do anything it wants and could have shown itself to the world at any time with minimal effort? well, too bad, you no longer get to exist because for an insignificant period of time compared to the infinitesimal amount of time that will exist you didn't worship me." seems real fair to us humans.
#26 - The most moral thing is that they are all your loved ones so i…  [+] (2 replies) 10/07/2016 on trolley 0
#40 - anon (10/08/2016) [-]
**anonymous used "*roll picture*"**
**anonymous rolled image**But doing nothing also in this situation is a act of killing someone. You chose to kill a loved one and not three strangers. Either way this is a no win scenario where your action or inaction will result in the death of one or more people no matter what.

How ever you are correct that what the other does is irrelevant. How ever there is no morale high ground here.This scenario was set up as thus to see how people would act upon their own morale decision making when in reality there was never a right or wrong answer just a shit sandwich.
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#94 - Vandeekree (10/08/2016) [-]
It is not killing anyone because you did everything you could, which turned out to be nothing despite your best efforts because the situation is rigged. There's nothing amoral about doing your best and failing. You killed no one.

Just because someone died near you doesn't mean anything good nor bad. And unless you put them on the track, you did not endanger those people. But you also have no right to kill anyone to save anyone else. It's simply not an action you can morally take. So while they single loved one died, which is sad, it was not wrong. They were going to die regardless if you were there or not unless you were willing to kill for them, which is never right as you only have your own life to morally give, not anyone else's.