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Vandeekree    

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latest user's comments

#13 - Damn, that's a cold ass honky. 04/08/2013 on planned pokehood 0
#101 - I do see the point, but children are only naive children for s… 04/04/2013 on Reapers ain't got nothin on... +1
#97 - I get your point but it's not very well worded. The Greek reli… 04/04/2013 on Reapers ain't got nothin on... 0
#17 - Tis a good idea 04/04/2013 on Vandeekree's profile 0
#805 - I have to reply here because the list is so long it won't let … 04/04/2013 on on my newsfeed today 0
#804 - Sorry, didn't make the connection, thanks 04/04/2013 on on my newsfeed today 0
#802 - I told you, I didn't judge them for what they are, only the ac… 04/04/2013 on on my newsfeed today 0
#799 - Yes, but you see the bible tells of times long before it was w… 04/04/2013 on on my newsfeed today 0
#797 - Ok, I believe we were talking about marriage and that it was s…  [+] (2 new replies) 04/03/2013 on on my newsfeed today 0
User avatar #798 - justinsane (04/03/2013) [-]
Ok, well I guess I'll gloss over the lesser points while still addressing them and focus primarily on the later. Sound good? Good.

From an anthropological stand point marriage (or at least committed partnerings with the intent of raising children) predates recorded history. Our earliest sources, the Bible; the Odyssey; Beowulf; et all, indicate that marriage was a practice long established before their publication. It is a process which has always existed and has had multiple forms across different cultural settings. While the Abrahamic religions can claim to have developed an early and relatively stable definition of marriage, they did not invent it and cant claim it.
The goal of a marriage is no longer the intention of procreation. A large number of fertile married couples have no intent of ever having children. Sterile people still seek marriages. Marriages do not dissolve after menopause. Yes, children are important parts of marriages, but they are clearly be the facts not the defining characteristic.
What I really want to get into however, is this notion that homosexuality is a dangerous lifestyle. The first thing I want you to do is acknowedge the fact that you are in VERY dangerous waters here. This is similar to saying that African-Americans are less intelligent because they have lower average SAT scores. Consider your words carefully and make sure that everything you say can be validated by a credible source. Violate these rules and not only will you make an ass of yourself, but you will have crossed the line of civility and I wont bother wasting my time on your bigotry (which that would unmistakably be)
User avatar #799 - Vandeekree (04/04/2013) [-]
Yes, but you see the bible tells of times long before it was written with Adam and Eve and even says(new testament) that sex beyond male and female intercourse is unnatural and wrong. So no, i wouldn't say you can really "own" marriage but God did start it and no marriage without him is real.

But the goal of marriage is a religious practice and id for the sake of bonding two people and helping make babies. Now from a government stand point, it's only about protecting children through the only way the government should be involved, through handling taxes. Only the religious side of marriage has anything to do with bonding or sex but it clearly states that two men or two men can't marry sense that's like saying you're sleepy when you want something to eat, the word marriage means a man and woman together.

It's not dangerous at all. i can mos certainly see that saying black people are dumber because of their race would be purely insulting because it talks down about what they are, but to say gay sex is a dangerous thing to do is not because it's talking about something those people DO, not something they ARE. It's an action to be gay because it mean you engage in gay sex, but you cannot do something black, black is what black people are, gay is what gay people choose to do. You can't choose to be black or white.
So I will say assuredly that gay sex is wrong and that it is a dangerous life style based on not only the people i know who have decided to label themselves as gay, but also the mounds of statistics and studies I have looked up saying that it is indeed unhealthy. And, though you may not believe me, I looked for sources that were unbiased and reviewed because I wanted to actually know, not just find statistics that told me "what I wanted"

Lastly, please understand, I feel no hate or animosity towards gay people. I love them as people but I do not love the choices they make. You shouldn't automatically call anyone who disagrees that gay sex is ok a bigot.
#708 - But God is the god of all people regardless of is the accept h… 04/03/2013 on Logical reasons to ban gay... 0
#796 - Oh geez, let me read back, it's been a while haha  [+] (6 new replies) 04/03/2013 on on my newsfeed today 0
User avatar #803 - justinsane (04/04/2013) [-]
The ellipsis signifies that i ran out of characters, please see the rest of my post below
User avatar #804 - Vandeekree (04/04/2013) [-]
Sorry, didn't make the connection, thanks
User avatar #800 - justinsane (04/04/2013) [-]
Hate to break it to you, but judging people for who they are as people is the definition of bigotry. That may hurt, but oh well, thats how it is.

As to the church and marriage, let me reiterate to you, we have a first amendment in this nation. it specifically states that it is not only illegal, but against the very constitution, to place religion in matters of the state. If you and your faith believe that a marriage not recognized by the church is not real, that is cool. You have a right to your beliefs. No one asked your permission though. It is a state matter and therefore it does not matter what any church has to say about it. Marriage is and always has been a social institution which later took on a religious flavor as organized religion and theocracy moved into the social sphere. Since a marriage is a term used to define a status of people licensed by the state to be in a long term, committed relationship, the state may dictate a new definition for it at any point. That's the thing about stipulative definitions, they can be changed by the people who made them.

These statistics you keep referencing is difficult for me to address however, I have not seen them and you have yet to cite a specific source, which means I can only guess at what you mean. Now I have seen several publications showing a correlation between homosexuality and higher rates of suicide, depression, drug and alcohol use, and lower happiness. Those are likely true. The APA (American Psychological Association) has performed studies which indicate:
Higher rates of major depression, generalized anxiety disorder and substance use or dependence in lesbian and gay youth.
Higher rates of recurrent major depression among gay men.Higher rates of anxiety, mood and substance use disorders, and suicidal thoughts among people ages 15 to 54 with same-sex partners.
Higher use of mental health services in men and women reporting same-sex partners.

However, if you know anything about statistics...
User avatar #805 - Vandeekree (04/04/2013) [-]
I have to reply here because the list is so long it won't let me add another.

But yes, I fully understand that and touched on it in my other reply. Even so, it's hard to say the std's are caused by the stigma them endure and while I totally agree they should not be treated that way sense those actions are driven by fear and the tragic tendency for people to like to create monsters, the fact that it could be caused by that also means it might not be caused by that. I wouldn't go so far as to say it doesn't effect them, but sex with anyone besides the woman you're married too(I'm guessing you're male here) is simply unnatural.

Though I did concede more studies need to be done which include studies on fully integrated couples of the same sex, the only problem with that is it would mean there was a fully integrated couple somewhere which is wrong for the couple to do so you can see my hang up lol
User avatar #802 - Vandeekree (04/04/2013) [-]
I told you, I didn't judge them for what they are, only the actions they took., If you can't just a person for deciding to have gay sex then you can't judge a murderer for deciding to murder. There's nothing wrong with fighting someone's actions when they are wrong so long as you do it with love and respect for the person. I believe the definition of a bigot is someone who treats someone else with hatred or contempt because of a characteristic of the person. I feel no hate for anyone no matter what they do. People who have gay sex are no different than anyone who sins. I am trying to save the person and fight the sin(The first being more important than the latter)

No no, the reason marriage was moved into government was because laws used to be based on religions and so naturally that included marriage. Now we've taken the religion out of the law but left the marriage in, it's kind of funny.

And I know I haven't cited, I said that, I encourage you to google around and find the studies to draw your own conclusions, it took me hours to follow up on sources and citations when I looked, I don't care to do that again. What I found was that the studies overwhelmingly indicated Std's rates in homosexuals are several times higher than those of the rest of the population even though they make up such a small part of the population. Abuse rates of same sex couples is as well though in a slightly lesser degree but still much higher. And the connection with gay people to mental issues from depression, anxiety, obsessive compulsive disorder, phobia, self-harm, suicidal thoughts, and alcohol and drug dependence are all higher. And that homosexuality most often occurs in people who experienced abuse of some sort at a young age.

And I do know it could be biased or simply a skewed interpretation of the data but all studies could, so it's still mostly a matter of opinion till more studies are conducted, but the trend is obvious.
User avatar #801 - justinsane (04/04/2013) [-]
...you know that correlation does not indicate a causation. A classic example of this is human sacrifice. Every year the Aztecs would sacrifice slaves to the gods, and every year the sun would rise. 100% of the time the Aztecs would sacrifice people, the sun would rise. That does not prove that their sacrifices brought the sun though. There is clearly a third variable which is causing it to happen (namely the laws of physics and the rotation of the Earth). The APA also admits this in the same study. They claim: "While the findings do not prove that discrimination causes mental health problems, they take a step toward demonstrating that the social stigma felt by LGB people has important mental health consequence." In other words, they are riducled in the media, often times exluded from social groups, occasionally beaten phsically by other peers, and told they are immoral people who are hell-bound. That does a lot to person's sense of self worth and can be a strong cause of the traits listed above.
#794 - Yes please, and thanks for coming back to reply once you had time.  [+] (11 new replies) 04/03/2013 on on my newsfeed today 0
User avatar #795 - justinsane (04/03/2013) [-]
ok, so your central argument is?
User avatar #797 - Vandeekree (04/03/2013) [-]
Ok, I believe we were talking about marriage and that it was started by the religion that would turn into Christianity and that while the government s involved for tax purposes and because that was how it used to work in theocracies, marriage is only valid when done as a pct with God.
Then we went into what the purpose of marriage is and I said it is about children so even from a non religious standpoint homosexuals shouldn't try to get in on marriage although perhaps some other form of civil union separate from the church practice would be ok.
And then lastly, what I think was the main point you and I were discussing was that homosexuality is a dangerous and harmful lifestyle(outside of a religious context of course sense it's a sin it's definitely unhealthy haha)

So then you were going to come back with evidence that it was not unhealthy based on std studies and metal heath rates and...stuff. Was that a sufficient sum of events?
User avatar #798 - justinsane (04/03/2013) [-]
Ok, well I guess I'll gloss over the lesser points while still addressing them and focus primarily on the later. Sound good? Good.

From an anthropological stand point marriage (or at least committed partnerings with the intent of raising children) predates recorded history. Our earliest sources, the Bible; the Odyssey; Beowulf; et all, indicate that marriage was a practice long established before their publication. It is a process which has always existed and has had multiple forms across different cultural settings. While the Abrahamic religions can claim to have developed an early and relatively stable definition of marriage, they did not invent it and cant claim it.
The goal of a marriage is no longer the intention of procreation. A large number of fertile married couples have no intent of ever having children. Sterile people still seek marriages. Marriages do not dissolve after menopause. Yes, children are important parts of marriages, but they are clearly be the facts not the defining characteristic.
What I really want to get into however, is this notion that homosexuality is a dangerous lifestyle. The first thing I want you to do is acknowedge the fact that you are in VERY dangerous waters here. This is similar to saying that African-Americans are less intelligent because they have lower average SAT scores. Consider your words carefully and make sure that everything you say can be validated by a credible source. Violate these rules and not only will you make an ass of yourself, but you will have crossed the line of civility and I wont bother wasting my time on your bigotry (which that would unmistakably be)
User avatar #799 - Vandeekree (04/04/2013) [-]
Yes, but you see the bible tells of times long before it was written with Adam and Eve and even says(new testament) that sex beyond male and female intercourse is unnatural and wrong. So no, i wouldn't say you can really "own" marriage but God did start it and no marriage without him is real.

But the goal of marriage is a religious practice and id for the sake of bonding two people and helping make babies. Now from a government stand point, it's only about protecting children through the only way the government should be involved, through handling taxes. Only the religious side of marriage has anything to do with bonding or sex but it clearly states that two men or two men can't marry sense that's like saying you're sleepy when you want something to eat, the word marriage means a man and woman together.

It's not dangerous at all. i can mos certainly see that saying black people are dumber because of their race would be purely insulting because it talks down about what they are, but to say gay sex is a dangerous thing to do is not because it's talking about something those people DO, not something they ARE. It's an action to be gay because it mean you engage in gay sex, but you cannot do something black, black is what black people are, gay is what gay people choose to do. You can't choose to be black or white.
So I will say assuredly that gay sex is wrong and that it is a dangerous life style based on not only the people i know who have decided to label themselves as gay, but also the mounds of statistics and studies I have looked up saying that it is indeed unhealthy. And, though you may not believe me, I looked for sources that were unbiased and reviewed because I wanted to actually know, not just find statistics that told me "what I wanted"

Lastly, please understand, I feel no hate or animosity towards gay people. I love them as people but I do not love the choices they make. You shouldn't automatically call anyone who disagrees that gay sex is ok a bigot.
User avatar #796 - Vandeekree (04/03/2013) [-]
Oh geez, let me read back, it's been a while haha
User avatar #803 - justinsane (04/04/2013) [-]
The ellipsis signifies that i ran out of characters, please see the rest of my post below
User avatar #804 - Vandeekree (04/04/2013) [-]
Sorry, didn't make the connection, thanks
User avatar #800 - justinsane (04/04/2013) [-]
Hate to break it to you, but judging people for who they are as people is the definition of bigotry. That may hurt, but oh well, thats how it is.

As to the church and marriage, let me reiterate to you, we have a first amendment in this nation. it specifically states that it is not only illegal, but against the very constitution, to place religion in matters of the state. If you and your faith believe that a marriage not recognized by the church is not real, that is cool. You have a right to your beliefs. No one asked your permission though. It is a state matter and therefore it does not matter what any church has to say about it. Marriage is and always has been a social institution which later took on a religious flavor as organized religion and theocracy moved into the social sphere. Since a marriage is a term used to define a status of people licensed by the state to be in a long term, committed relationship, the state may dictate a new definition for it at any point. That's the thing about stipulative definitions, they can be changed by the people who made them.

These statistics you keep referencing is difficult for me to address however, I have not seen them and you have yet to cite a specific source, which means I can only guess at what you mean. Now I have seen several publications showing a correlation between homosexuality and higher rates of suicide, depression, drug and alcohol use, and lower happiness. Those are likely true. The APA (American Psychological Association) has performed studies which indicate:
Higher rates of major depression, generalized anxiety disorder and substance use or dependence in lesbian and gay youth.
Higher rates of recurrent major depression among gay men.Higher rates of anxiety, mood and substance use disorders, and suicidal thoughts among people ages 15 to 54 with same-sex partners.
Higher use of mental health services in men and women reporting same-sex partners.

However, if you know anything about statistics...
User avatar #805 - Vandeekree (04/04/2013) [-]
I have to reply here because the list is so long it won't let me add another.

But yes, I fully understand that and touched on it in my other reply. Even so, it's hard to say the std's are caused by the stigma them endure and while I totally agree they should not be treated that way sense those actions are driven by fear and the tragic tendency for people to like to create monsters, the fact that it could be caused by that also means it might not be caused by that. I wouldn't go so far as to say it doesn't effect them, but sex with anyone besides the woman you're married too(I'm guessing you're male here) is simply unnatural.

Though I did concede more studies need to be done which include studies on fully integrated couples of the same sex, the only problem with that is it would mean there was a fully integrated couple somewhere which is wrong for the couple to do so you can see my hang up lol
User avatar #802 - Vandeekree (04/04/2013) [-]
I told you, I didn't judge them for what they are, only the actions they took., If you can't just a person for deciding to have gay sex then you can't judge a murderer for deciding to murder. There's nothing wrong with fighting someone's actions when they are wrong so long as you do it with love and respect for the person. I believe the definition of a bigot is someone who treats someone else with hatred or contempt because of a characteristic of the person. I feel no hate for anyone no matter what they do. People who have gay sex are no different than anyone who sins. I am trying to save the person and fight the sin(The first being more important than the latter)

No no, the reason marriage was moved into government was because laws used to be based on religions and so naturally that included marriage. Now we've taken the religion out of the law but left the marriage in, it's kind of funny.

And I know I haven't cited, I said that, I encourage you to google around and find the studies to draw your own conclusions, it took me hours to follow up on sources and citations when I looked, I don't care to do that again. What I found was that the studies overwhelmingly indicated Std's rates in homosexuals are several times higher than those of the rest of the population even though they make up such a small part of the population. Abuse rates of same sex couples is as well though in a slightly lesser degree but still much higher. And the connection with gay people to mental issues from depression, anxiety, obsessive compulsive disorder, phobia, self-harm, suicidal thoughts, and alcohol and drug dependence are all higher. And that homosexuality most often occurs in people who experienced abuse of some sort at a young age.

And I do know it could be biased or simply a skewed interpretation of the data but all studies could, so it's still mostly a matter of opinion till more studies are conducted, but the trend is obvious.
User avatar #801 - justinsane (04/04/2013) [-]
...you know that correlation does not indicate a causation. A classic example of this is human sacrifice. Every year the Aztecs would sacrifice slaves to the gods, and every year the sun would rise. 100% of the time the Aztecs would sacrifice people, the sun would rise. That does not prove that their sacrifices brought the sun though. There is clearly a third variable which is causing it to happen (namely the laws of physics and the rotation of the Earth). The APA also admits this in the same study. They claim: "While the findings do not prove that discrimination causes mental health problems, they take a step toward demonstrating that the social stigma felt by LGB people has important mental health consequence." In other words, they are riducled in the media, often times exluded from social groups, occasionally beaten phsically by other peers, and told they are immoral people who are hell-bound. That does a lot to person's sense of self worth and can be a strong cause of the traits listed above.
#704 - That is all old testament, I advise you to google why Christia…  [+] (2 new replies) 03/30/2013 on Logical reasons to ban gay... 0
#707 - Hightower (04/02/2013) [-]
I don't think I can explain this any simpler. Your religion is not everyones religion. If you choose to live your life by a 2000 year old book, them by all means, have fun, but when you begin to insist everyone follow your religions rules, then you are in the wrong. Plain and simple. Would you like to be forced to follow muslim law?

Morality without religion is not only possible, but far more practical. Without your god, it is simple to tell right from wrong. It's something that all higher species have evolved to recognize. By working together, and not harming one another, the group as a whole benefits. If others are harmed for the betterment of the few, or one, that does not help the group as a whole, and therefore is not good. Nowhere in there did i have to mention your god, because it is not a necessary part of the equation.

I love the fact you said you don't adhere to the OT, because that makes this so much easier.

"Mark 7:14 ...Hearken unto me EVERY ONE OF YOU, and UNDERSTAND:"

"Mark 7:15 There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him:"

There it is. The entire chapter is about THESE words, which Jesus Christ himself has identified as important for ALL to understand.

Likewise, blood transfusions, medication, organ transplants, and artificial insemination are not sins and do not defile, because all of those involve something entering a man from without.

Likewise HOMOSEXUAL ACTS are not sins and do not defile, because all of those ALSO involve something entering a man from without.

Don't forget...
“For there are eunuchs who are born thus from their mothers womb, and there are eunuchs who are made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who are eunuchs for the
kingdom of heavens sake. Let those who can accept it, accept it.”
Matthew 19:12.


So, most churched admit that Jesus said nothing condemning about homosexuality, but he did say a few things that could be taken as exoneration.
User avatar #708 - Vandeekree (04/03/2013) [-]
But God is the god of all people regardless of is the accept him or not. Now he gives free will, it's not my place to try and force anyone to be morally upright but I am allowed to try to teach them, try to help them see why what is right is right and why they should do it. But I'm not nor would i ever try to force someone to be morally right (except my child haha) And no, I wouldn't to be forced to follow Muslim law and I wouldn't want them to be forced to follow Christian law, but for freedom's sake I would think the law should not support nor outlaw anything we can't both agree on.

And morality required an all seeing being to tell us what is right, else we are lost. Throughout history everything has been justified, rape, murder, stealing, genocide, all of it and much more. Without God, morality is arbitrary because you can't say "this is wrong because..."

And you let out a bit of that verse "There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man."
This verse means you can eat pork, you don't have to wash your hands(which is the context of the verse) and it won't defile you, what defiles you is what is on the inside, what you let your mind do, how it works. This is why anyone can have anal sex and it not defile them because that is coming into them, a person who is raped is not morally defiled, but when you let your mind want it, lust after it, THEN you are defiled because of the lust that comes out of you just as it is the covetous feelings towards a neighbor's car that defile.

As for your last quote, I don't understand your point, a eunuch is a man who is castrated, he has no sexual drives because their genitals do not function.

As for the last comment, I agree, Jesus never directly mentioned homosexuality, all churches hopefully say that. But he did define marriage and say that sex outside of marriage is sinful. Now for new testament proof, check out Romans 1:26-27
#46 - I hope you grab your own arm thinking it's a branch and fall o… 03/29/2013 on Gays vs Atheists 0
#6 - I think he did care about sex out of marriage, then he defined… 03/29/2013 on Jesus on Gays +1
#16 - A few smacks to the face will toughen him up. 03/29/2013 on Evil Cat Edition +9
#14 - The mom cat saw something on it's baby, how else would it reac…  [+] (2 new replies) 03/29/2013 on Evil Cat Edition +3
User avatar #15 - carelessinteractin (03/29/2013) [-]
still though that baby cat man.
User avatar #16 - Vandeekree (03/29/2013) [-]
A few smacks to the face will toughen him up.
#691 - I do want that, but i want them to choose to do so. i would ne… 03/29/2013 on Logical reasons to ban gay... 0
#41 - To be honest, I'm just kind of disturbed you have so many slot…  [+] (5 new replies) 03/28/2013 on Gays vs Atheists 0
#45 - falloutfanatic (03/29/2013) [-]
You
#44 - falloutfanatic (03/29/2013) [-]
like
#43 - falloutfanatic (03/29/2013) [-]
sloths?
#42 - falloutfanatic (03/29/2013) [-]
really?
User avatar #46 - Vandeekree (03/29/2013) [-]
I hope you grab your own arm thinking it's a branch and fall out the tree to your death.
#690 - And most of those things are either not believed by all Christ…  [+] (4 new replies) 03/28/2013 on Logical reasons to ban gay... 0
#700 - Hightower (03/29/2013) [-]
I was comparing humans fresh from the caves trying to understand the vastness of the universe without any knowledge of how it works, to a five year old explaining internal combustion. They will use what they can see to explain it, and at points even call it magic, but that does not make it so.
Humanity has advanced so far since those books were written that, continuing to live our lives by it, and forcing others to do so as well, cannot help humanity advance, but only hold us back. Nothing that was written by primitives can help humanity if we continue to use it as anything more than what it really is, a book of our primitive myths and legends. Sure there are some excellent moral guidelines in there, like Do unto others, but if you use it to deny people the same basic rights and protections that you enjoy, simply because it says something they do is wrong, you must first adhere to every rule written in there yourself, and I doubt you bake your barley cakes with dung that came from your own ass. If you can use Leviticus to deny same sex couples the right to marry, then I can use the same book to rape whomever I chose, as long as I have enough silver to give her father, then she becomes my property any way.

Do you see the fallacy of using the bible to justify the dehumanization of people who are no different than you or me, just because they love someone you don't agree with, when you don't live your life by the rest of it? When you live 100% by the laws of the bible, THEN you can try and make other people follow your dogma, except if you were living according to the bible, you wouldn't be judging people like that, now would you.
User avatar #704 - Vandeekree (03/30/2013) [-]
That is all old testament, I advise you to google why Christians no longer follow the old testament because i think i tried to explain it to you before and clearly i did a poor job. I do follow(or try my best too) all the rules of the bible but the old testament rules were fulfilled by Jesus. And I use exactly none of those to show homosexuality is a sin. The only thing i would bring them up for is to show the bible has always shed a negative light on same sex sex.

And there is no fallacy in using the bible for morality. It is as valid now as the day it was written because it was ordained by God himself.
There is no morality without religion because if there is, where does it come from? What makes hurting someone wrong? There is no answer besides "well i feel ike it is," what if someone else feels differently? It's just arbitrary and that is why the only issue in morality is which religion is the correct one.

And as i said, I am not dehumanizing anyone anymore than you dehumanize a murderer or rapist by saying "you can't do that it's wrong." Homosexuality is a sin and I would go so far as to say I want them to have the right to choose to practice it but i do not want it supported in law, only tolerated.

Please note that in Christianity you have to love everyone for who they are, you have to treat them like you would yourself. However you do not have to love every action they take. Treat them with respect and caring because they are human.

Now I am not homophobic, I say that because it really doesn't gross me out and i feel no hate at all against people who have gay sex, the reason I am against it is because I believe it hurts the person who practices it and I do not want that to be supported(but also not banned, simply allowed and hopefully taught against, sort of like smoking.)
#707 - Hightower (04/02/2013) [-]
I don't think I can explain this any simpler. Your religion is not everyones religion. If you choose to live your life by a 2000 year old book, them by all means, have fun, but when you begin to insist everyone follow your religions rules, then you are in the wrong. Plain and simple. Would you like to be forced to follow muslim law?

Morality without religion is not only possible, but far more practical. Without your god, it is simple to tell right from wrong. It's something that all higher species have evolved to recognize. By working together, and not harming one another, the group as a whole benefits. If others are harmed for the betterment of the few, or one, that does not help the group as a whole, and therefore is not good. Nowhere in there did i have to mention your god, because it is not a necessary part of the equation.

I love the fact you said you don't adhere to the OT, because that makes this so much easier.

"Mark 7:14 ...Hearken unto me EVERY ONE OF YOU, and UNDERSTAND:"

"Mark 7:15 There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him:"

There it is. The entire chapter is about THESE words, which Jesus Christ himself has identified as important for ALL to understand.

Likewise, blood transfusions, medication, organ transplants, and artificial insemination are not sins and do not defile, because all of those involve something entering a man from without.

Likewise HOMOSEXUAL ACTS are not sins and do not defile, because all of those ALSO involve something entering a man from without.

Don't forget...
“For there are eunuchs who are born thus from their mothers womb, and there are eunuchs who are made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who are eunuchs for the
kingdom of heavens sake. Let those who can accept it, accept it.”
Matthew 19:12.


So, most churched admit that Jesus said nothing condemning about homosexuality, but he did say a few things that could be taken as exoneration.
User avatar #708 - Vandeekree (04/03/2013) [-]
But God is the god of all people regardless of is the accept him or not. Now he gives free will, it's not my place to try and force anyone to be morally upright but I am allowed to try to teach them, try to help them see why what is right is right and why they should do it. But I'm not nor would i ever try to force someone to be morally right (except my child haha) And no, I wouldn't to be forced to follow Muslim law and I wouldn't want them to be forced to follow Christian law, but for freedom's sake I would think the law should not support nor outlaw anything we can't both agree on.

And morality required an all seeing being to tell us what is right, else we are lost. Throughout history everything has been justified, rape, murder, stealing, genocide, all of it and much more. Without God, morality is arbitrary because you can't say "this is wrong because..."

And you let out a bit of that verse "There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man."
This verse means you can eat pork, you don't have to wash your hands(which is the context of the verse) and it won't defile you, what defiles you is what is on the inside, what you let your mind do, how it works. This is why anyone can have anal sex and it not defile them because that is coming into them, a person who is raped is not morally defiled, but when you let your mind want it, lust after it, THEN you are defiled because of the lust that comes out of you just as it is the covetous feelings towards a neighbor's car that defile.

As for your last quote, I don't understand your point, a eunuch is a man who is castrated, he has no sexual drives because their genitals do not function.

As for the last comment, I agree, Jesus never directly mentioned homosexuality, all churches hopefully say that. But he did define marriage and say that sex outside of marriage is sinful. Now for new testament proof, check out Romans 1:26-27
#38 - Like it or not, I am also coming from a historical standpoint.…  [+] (7 new replies) 03/28/2013 on Gays vs Atheists 0
#39 - falloutfanatic (03/28/2013) [-]
User avatar #41 - Vandeekree (03/28/2013) [-]
To be honest, I'm just kind of disturbed you have so many sloth head pictures.
#45 - falloutfanatic (03/29/2013) [-]
You
#44 - falloutfanatic (03/29/2013) [-]
like
#43 - falloutfanatic (03/29/2013) [-]
sloths?
#42 - falloutfanatic (03/29/2013) [-]
really?
User avatar #46 - Vandeekree (03/29/2013) [-]
I hope you grab your own arm thinking it's a branch and fall out the tree to your death.
#685 - Because God's law is the defining factor, you ask me why it is…  [+] (2 new replies) 03/28/2013 on Logical reasons to ban gay... 0
#687 - Hightower (03/28/2013) [-]
Because you want to determine how people live their lives based on what you think is right! If same sex couples are allowed to get married, does that mean you will have to run right out and start sucking the first cock you see? No! It will have absolutely no effect on your life, unless you want it to.
You are imposing your views onto others, and the getting your knickers in a twist when someone asks why you care so much. You are the one demanding that everyone live the way you see fit, not the other way around.
You don't use logic. your argument comes from a book of fables written from 6000 to 2000 years ago. There can be no logic in an opinion based on fairy tales.

You have, in all of this, still not answered my original question. You have no reason other than your religion to deny these people the same rights under the secular law., and that's not a good enough reason.

Thank you for the conversation. Good day.
User avatar #691 - Vandeekree (03/29/2013) [-]
I do want that, but i want them to choose to do so. i would never force it on them. But you are wrong. I don't mind them doing whatever they like even if it's wrong. However, when they try to change the law to make something that is wrong accepted by law, that does effect me and I will do what I can to not allow it. They are the ones trying to impose their views, not us. They want what they do to be accepted, we are not denying them the gay sex they enjoy, but when they want marriage it is them trying to push us to add them to our list of "things that are ok" when it's simply not alright.

How can you sit there and see them demand we change and then say we're the ones making them conform?

And those books were written by the all knowing God so I think it's safe to say he has a good grip on morality.

So to answer your question, yes, the reason i think it's wrong is my morality. If you want me to tell you what i think is right and wrong without using the reason i think things are right or wrong then I don't think you understand your own question. And i told you, they already have the same rights, but i don't want laws made based on nothing more than someone's desires, that can only lead to more bad laws.

But let me ask you, if we have a fully secular government, what should our laws be based on? What makes something right or wrong?
#36 - Very true, Christianity only started when Jesus came back abou…  [+] (9 new replies) 03/28/2013 on Gays vs Atheists 0
#37 - falloutfanatic (03/28/2013) [-]
because you are coming from a religious standpoint and i am coming from a historical one, this can only lead to a futile back and forth shit storm between us, so i will back out of the conversation now and leave you with a picture of a sloth
User avatar #38 - Vandeekree (03/28/2013) [-]
Like it or not, I am also coming from a historical standpoint. Simply telling you what God did just as you are telling me what the Babylonians did. Perhaps historians have only found evidence so far back as the Babylonians besides the bible, but then human sight on such things has always been increasingly limited the farther back we go. So it comes down to whether you believe in God or not which would continue into a whole new debate i agree. i won't push it if you don't want to go into it.
Also, thank you for the sloth, i will assume you meant it to be humerus and not insulting despite the fact the sloth is wearing traditional Christian apparel.
#39 - falloutfanatic (03/28/2013) [-]
User avatar #41 - Vandeekree (03/28/2013) [-]
To be honest, I'm just kind of disturbed you have so many sloth head pictures.
#45 - falloutfanatic (03/29/2013) [-]
You
#44 - falloutfanatic (03/29/2013) [-]
like
#43 - falloutfanatic (03/29/2013) [-]
sloths?
#42 - falloutfanatic (03/29/2013) [-]
really?
User avatar #46 - Vandeekree (03/29/2013) [-]
I hope you grab your own arm thinking it's a branch and fall out the tree to your death.
#683 - Yes, because love and sex is separate, they can physically exp…  [+] (6 new replies) 03/28/2013 on Logical reasons to ban gay... 0
#686 - Hightower (03/28/2013) [-]
The world is not flat, nor is it 6000 years old, the sun had to come first before the earth, It would be impossible for a man to live inside a fish, no matter how big, not every animal lived within walking distance of Noahs house, the earth is not the center of the universe, humans were not created from dirt, the moon is not a source of light, the dead cannot rise after 3 days, Staffs cannot turn into snakes, the 10 plagues of Egypt (they have record going back thousands of years, and there is never mention of any of the 10 plagues by themselves, let alone 10 in a row.)

That's just what I was able to remember myself. The bible is not perfect, any more than you could say Grimms Fairy Tales are perfect, because you can't prove them wrong either.

I have studied the bible, from in the beginning to amen. I have no idea what you're trying to say with that last line. What does asking a child to describe a complicated mechanical process have to do with doing tests on them?
User avatar #690 - Vandeekree (03/28/2013) [-]
And most of those things are either not believed by all Christians or simply miracles that are supposed to be impressive to help prove they were God's doing and not coincidence. And some of those are just assumptions made by people looking for flaws where there are none. I really do want to go over each no but I'm kind of short on time tonight and can't be up late arguing again. And while i agree that some of the more miraculous miracles can't be proven, I think that was the design but to simply say "well that couldn't have happened" is naive sense I'm nearly sure you were neither there nor can you be certain a large enough sea creature couldn't keep a man in his gut(especially if God is guiding it). The answer to many of those that you said id that they aren't out of the realm of belief if you add in that God is guiding them but it also requires belief in God. How can you say "this is too far fetched" when it was an act of God. He could have moved the pairs of animals towards the arch, he could have made people from nothing, much less dirt. And just so you know, not all Christians believe the Earth is 600 years old and it says in the bible that the Earth is round (Isaiah 40:22) even back when it was customary to think otherwise. As for the astronomical parts, we don't actually know what was going on back then, yes there are some good guesses and even some decent evidence, but we don't know enough to check it against the bible(yet)

That's what i asked you about the children. You say that like it means something, like it proves anything besides being an insult,, comparing the child's logic to the bible. It wasn't a comment fit for an actual discussion. That was my point. i sort of feel like you're getting angry with me the more we argue and I'm getting more and more mocking comments like that. I'm really not trying to rile you up I promise, but i don't like when you say such things in what i thought was a mutually respectful little debate.
#700 - Hightower (03/29/2013) [-]
I was comparing humans fresh from the caves trying to understand the vastness of the universe without any knowledge of how it works, to a five year old explaining internal combustion. They will use what they can see to explain it, and at points even call it magic, but that does not make it so.
Humanity has advanced so far since those books were written that, continuing to live our lives by it, and forcing others to do so as well, cannot help humanity advance, but only hold us back. Nothing that was written by primitives can help humanity if we continue to use it as anything more than what it really is, a book of our primitive myths and legends. Sure there are some excellent moral guidelines in there, like Do unto others, but if you use it to deny people the same basic rights and protections that you enjoy, simply because it says something they do is wrong, you must first adhere to every rule written in there yourself, and I doubt you bake your barley cakes with dung that came from your own ass. If you can use Leviticus to deny same sex couples the right to marry, then I can use the same book to rape whomever I chose, as long as I have enough silver to give her father, then she becomes my property any way.

Do you see the fallacy of using the bible to justify the dehumanization of people who are no different than you or me, just because they love someone you don't agree with, when you don't live your life by the rest of it? When you live 100% by the laws of the bible, THEN you can try and make other people follow your dogma, except if you were living according to the bible, you wouldn't be judging people like that, now would you.
User avatar #704 - Vandeekree (03/30/2013) [-]
That is all old testament, I advise you to google why Christians no longer follow the old testament because i think i tried to explain it to you before and clearly i did a poor job. I do follow(or try my best too) all the rules of the bible but the old testament rules were fulfilled by Jesus. And I use exactly none of those to show homosexuality is a sin. The only thing i would bring them up for is to show the bible has always shed a negative light on same sex sex.

And there is no fallacy in using the bible for morality. It is as valid now as the day it was written because it was ordained by God himself.
There is no morality without religion because if there is, where does it come from? What makes hurting someone wrong? There is no answer besides "well i feel ike it is," what if someone else feels differently? It's just arbitrary and that is why the only issue in morality is which religion is the correct one.

And as i said, I am not dehumanizing anyone anymore than you dehumanize a murderer or rapist by saying "you can't do that it's wrong." Homosexuality is a sin and I would go so far as to say I want them to have the right to choose to practice it but i do not want it supported in law, only tolerated.

Please note that in Christianity you have to love everyone for who they are, you have to treat them like you would yourself. However you do not have to love every action they take. Treat them with respect and caring because they are human.

Now I am not homophobic, I say that because it really doesn't gross me out and i feel no hate at all against people who have gay sex, the reason I am against it is because I believe it hurts the person who practices it and I do not want that to be supported(but also not banned, simply allowed and hopefully taught against, sort of like smoking.)
#707 - Hightower (04/02/2013) [-]
I don't think I can explain this any simpler. Your religion is not everyones religion. If you choose to live your life by a 2000 year old book, them by all means, have fun, but when you begin to insist everyone follow your religions rules, then you are in the wrong. Plain and simple. Would you like to be forced to follow muslim law?

Morality without religion is not only possible, but far more practical. Without your god, it is simple to tell right from wrong. It's something that all higher species have evolved to recognize. By working together, and not harming one another, the group as a whole benefits. If others are harmed for the betterment of the few, or one, that does not help the group as a whole, and therefore is not good. Nowhere in there did i have to mention your god, because it is not a necessary part of the equation.

I love the fact you said you don't adhere to the OT, because that makes this so much easier.

"Mark 7:14 ...Hearken unto me EVERY ONE OF YOU, and UNDERSTAND:"

"Mark 7:15 There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him:"

There it is. The entire chapter is about THESE words, which Jesus Christ himself has identified as important for ALL to understand.

Likewise, blood transfusions, medication, organ transplants, and artificial insemination are not sins and do not defile, because all of those involve something entering a man from without.

Likewise HOMOSEXUAL ACTS are not sins and do not defile, because all of those ALSO involve something entering a man from without.

Don't forget...
“For there are eunuchs who are born thus from their mothers womb, and there are eunuchs who are made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who are eunuchs for the
kingdom of heavens sake. Let those who can accept it, accept it.”
Matthew 19:12.


So, most churched admit that Jesus said nothing condemning about homosexuality, but he did say a few things that could be taken as exoneration.
User avatar #708 - Vandeekree (04/03/2013) [-]
But God is the god of all people regardless of is the accept him or not. Now he gives free will, it's not my place to try and force anyone to be morally upright but I am allowed to try to teach them, try to help them see why what is right is right and why they should do it. But I'm not nor would i ever try to force someone to be morally right (except my child haha) And no, I wouldn't to be forced to follow Muslim law and I wouldn't want them to be forced to follow Christian law, but for freedom's sake I would think the law should not support nor outlaw anything we can't both agree on.

And morality required an all seeing being to tell us what is right, else we are lost. Throughout history everything has been justified, rape, murder, stealing, genocide, all of it and much more. Without God, morality is arbitrary because you can't say "this is wrong because..."

And you let out a bit of that verse "There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man."
This verse means you can eat pork, you don't have to wash your hands(which is the context of the verse) and it won't defile you, what defiles you is what is on the inside, what you let your mind do, how it works. This is why anyone can have anal sex and it not defile them because that is coming into them, a person who is raped is not morally defiled, but when you let your mind want it, lust after it, THEN you are defiled because of the lust that comes out of you just as it is the covetous feelings towards a neighbor's car that defile.

As for your last quote, I don't understand your point, a eunuch is a man who is castrated, he has no sexual drives because their genitals do not function.

As for the last comment, I agree, Jesus never directly mentioned homosexuality, all churches hopefully say that. But he did define marriage and say that sex outside of marriage is sinful. Now for new testament proof, check out Romans 1:26-27
#682 - (ran out of room) And there is nothing but reason behind …  [+] (4 new replies) 03/28/2013 on Logical reasons to ban gay... 0
#684 - Hightower (03/28/2013) [-]
Nope. All done. You cannot come up with one single reason that doesn't involve you religion, so you have no leg to stand on in a legal argument. Your religion does not give you the right to dictate how others live their life.
I have explained myself as much as I'm willing to, I do not need your religion, or any religion to know right from wrong.

I have not been insulting to you, you just don't like what I have to say, so you feel insulted.
Enjoy living your life by a set of rules laid out by cavemen, I'll stick to the portion of humanity that is moving forward.
User avatar #685 - Vandeekree (03/28/2013) [-]
Because God's law is the defining factor, you ask me why it is wrong, it's because it is wrong according to my moral code that I get from God. You however are the one who can't even say where his morals come from, only define what they are, not why they are. And i do not want to dictate ow other's live. Why do all supporters of gay sex like to say we are imposing on them? They are the ones imposing on us, trying to make everyone accept their sinful ways and make it law. They want something from us, we don't want them to do anything besides not demand things from us.

And i don't mind you disagree with me, but it is insulting when you go from saying you point, to belittling me and mine. Saying "bronze age" not to show when the religion was began but as a way to suggest it is a bad thing. telling me whether or not i love others. Saying i don't use logic just because we disagree. Perhaps you honestly can't see my logic but then you should try to understand it to tell me the flaws in it instead of simply saying it's illogical. It honestly is insulting, it stops being the sharing of information and turns into you just telling me how dumb my side is. You disagree, that i already know, stating it over again in different negative ways does not help me get it any better.
#687 - Hightower (03/28/2013) [-]
Because you want to determine how people live their lives based on what you think is right! If same sex couples are allowed to get married, does that mean you will have to run right out and start sucking the first cock you see? No! It will have absolutely no effect on your life, unless you want it to.
You are imposing your views onto others, and the getting your knickers in a twist when someone asks why you care so much. You are the one demanding that everyone live the way you see fit, not the other way around.
You don't use logic. your argument comes from a book of fables written from 6000 to 2000 years ago. There can be no logic in an opinion based on fairy tales.

You have, in all of this, still not answered my original question. You have no reason other than your religion to deny these people the same rights under the secular law., and that's not a good enough reason.

Thank you for the conversation. Good day.
User avatar #691 - Vandeekree (03/29/2013) [-]
I do want that, but i want them to choose to do so. i would never force it on them. But you are wrong. I don't mind them doing whatever they like even if it's wrong. However, when they try to change the law to make something that is wrong accepted by law, that does effect me and I will do what I can to not allow it. They are the ones trying to impose their views, not us. They want what they do to be accepted, we are not denying them the gay sex they enjoy, but when they want marriage it is them trying to push us to add them to our list of "things that are ok" when it's simply not alright.

How can you sit there and see them demand we change and then say we're the ones making them conform?

And those books were written by the all knowing God so I think it's safe to say he has a good grip on morality.

So to answer your question, yes, the reason i think it's wrong is my morality. If you want me to tell you what i think is right and wrong without using the reason i think things are right or wrong then I don't think you understand your own question. And i told you, they already have the same rights, but i don't want laws made based on nothing more than someone's desires, that can only lead to more bad laws.

But let me ask you, if we have a fully secular government, what should our laws be based on? What makes something right or wrong?
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User avatar #19 - kiratheunholy (05/09/2013) [-]
Do you not have morals? Like seriously do you not have any? You claim that you only do as the bible instructs every time someone asks you about morals, but do you not know right from wrong without religion?

If so perhaps you should learn it. I'm an agnostic and I still know what's right from wrong without a higher entity instructing me on it. If the only thing keeping you from being a moral-less prick is religion then you are probably a psychopath.
User avatar #16 - justinsane (04/04/2013) [-]
Lets just put this here, shall we? Fewer purple lines
User avatar #18 to #16 - justinsane (04/04/2013) [-]
Now I strongly disagree that more studies need to be done in order to come to a consensus. All of the leading bodies which have done research on the subject have found no reason to indicate that gays are naturally more likely through their expression of sexuality to have any types of adverse effects. The only people I have heard calling for more research are the same people claiming that climate change is not a thing or that natural selection doesnt happen. There is a consensus in the scientific community and it is people who are not a part of the community who claim that they cant make conclusions (because they dont like the ones made)
User avatar #17 to #16 - Vandeekree (04/04/2013) [-]
Tis a good idea
#14 - highclassbean (02/11/2013) [-]
thank you for being so informative and calm in that religious conversation with thebritish.guy. really gave a positive look on the religious community.
User avatar #15 to #14 - Vandeekree (02/11/2013) [-]
Why thank you. Simply following the bible though. It says to approach the nonbeliever with respect and politeness.
#10 - anonymous (09/07/2012) [-]
******* idiot.
#9 - Vandeekree (09/01/2012) [-]
**Vandeekree rolled a random image posted in comment #40 at Christian dating **
#5 - Vandeekree (09/14/2011) [-]
**Vandeekree rolled a random image**
User avatar #4 - Vandeekree (07/27/2011) [-]
**Vandeekree rolls 1**
User avatar #3 - Vandeekree (08/08/2010) [-]
**Vandeekree rolls 4**
#1 - bearycool **User deleted account** (07/14/2010) [-]
*pats head* don't worry my son I read your comment 80
User avatar #2 to #1 - Vandeekree (07/14/2010) [-]
Thank you, now I feel loved. i guess that's what I get for posting in the morning when the average funnyjunker is asleep.
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