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#142 - somuchfreedom (09/12/2014) [-]
it is true that there might be economic peaks that could help them all if they were to stay tied together, a lot of nations (germany) are frustrated at having to be the financial pillar on which weak and poor nations stand on, and when the middle class nations that are on the far end of middle class can't get any help because they let in more poor nations that suck away all the money that could be helping to boost a struggling nation into a prosperous one, to instead hold up a failing one on the edge of perpetual mediocritee
#101 - aldkai (09/12/2014) [-]
Yeah a brother alright how about the time they banned bagpipes because it was "promoting scottish nationalist"?
And how about the fact that basically scots have much less power to chose the Prime Minister? And I could cite a lot of other things that explain why they want out.
#87 - kristovsky (09/12/2014) [-]
of course being Eurosceptic doesn't make you de-facto a xenophobe. but the majority of euro sceptic people I talk to don't have any real reasons for being opposed to the EU except "get foreigners out, open borders hurr durr". Really, there was little solid Euroscepticism until people started regurgitating Farage's bullshit.
#96 - kanadetenshi (09/12/2014) [-]
The fact is ever since the European Union has been created the countries have been going down the shitter. The Euro is a complete failure that was forced on us, other countries that are already collapsed like Greece are dragging us down, government power has increase exponentially to the point where they want a super-state, completely different cultures are colliding with eachother and causing violence, open borders encouraging poor and unskilled immigration that is good in the short term for businesses as a source of cheap labor but bad in the medium & longer term for the taxpayer as these people require costly government services and require expensive infrastructure to be built to sustain them, neither of which the new immigrants can afford to pay for.
This has nothing to do with the left-wing rhetoric of "hurr if you disagree with us ur racist", it's about an economy that is clearly collapsing.
#106 - kristovsky (09/12/2014) [-]
Since the creation of the European Union, trade within it has increased by £200 billion. Countries like Poland, Estonia, Lithuania etc are developing very fast. It's easy to complain about the EU, because you don't know what would have happened without it. And without the EU, we would see a much more economically insignificant Europe, a far more lagging East, countries like Spain, Greece and Portugal would be completely stagnant, Russia would have a far greater influence on European Politics in the East, and the US would Dictate Politics in the West.
The Euro is not a complete failure, look at Estonia, Germany, Belgium, Malta, Slovenia etc. What failed was the Greek, Spanish and Italian governments, who did not control corruption, spending or tax evasion within their own country, the Euro did not make their decisions, the governments did. In fact, the Eurozone economy is currently doing Better than Russia's, Ukraine's, And Brazil's, these are all supposed developing economies which should be growing fast.
As for immigration, EU migrants generate more capital from tax per person than native people in Britain, so I'm not complaining. You want to know about British infrastructure? We haven't built any new Railways since the Victorian era, we haven't built any new hospitals since the 60s, we haven't built any new motorways since the 70s. British infrastructure was already collapsing under lack of investment from a succession of capital, finance-sector obsessed governments, it has little or nothing to do with EU migrants, of which a similar number have come to Britain to those who left Britain to go and live in other EU countries. They require no more "costly infrastructure" than the people already living in Britain desperately needed.
Increased EU integration has had many benefits for consumers, such as freedom to holiday in Europe where I want and decreased roaming charges, your "Superstate" doesn't sound too bad to me.
#117 - kanadetenshi (09/12/2014) [-]
That has nothing to do with the European Union, it's the result of the european economic area which serves it's purpose as a trade union without the blatant corruption, collapse and other bullshit. To assume that we cannot properly trade between countries without blatantly opening our borders is bullshit. If our economy was based on a complete free market then trading would be inevitable. Just look at Switzerland, never had to join the EU and still is doing far greater than many of the EU countries.
Germany is practically the only one benefiting from it. Belgium is still slowly recovering from a massive crisis, in fact all the countries you mentioned are only looking like they're not a failure because they've started to recover by the damage that was gone by...you guessed it, the glorious european union. Now let's look at the countries who have been going worse ever since the EU. Italy, Britain, Netherlands, France, Ireland, Spain, Sweden, Portugal, Denmark among many others have been turning into complete shit all because we are forced to spoonfeed countries that are doomed to fail.
The infrastructure was fine, it didn't really need any of that bullshit you're talking about until immigration became rampant, they require far more infrastructure due to different cultural norms, inability to assimilate and leeching off every single welfare policy they can find, and yet they can't afford any of it.
Oh yeah increased crime rates, culture wars, ethic groups pressuring others, business monopolies, economic collapse and a big goverment increasingly fucking up our freedom sounds not bad at all. It's certainly not bad that The Netherlands went from AAA to AA status thanks to the euro, to have increased crime and instability, to have a bloated bureaucracy, to heavily regulate a free market.
#171 - kristovsky (09/12/2014) [-]
Actually increased trade it has a lot to do with the European Union, because a big part of the EU's job is standardisation of pan European quality standards and industry regulations. This makes it far easier and cheaper for companies to operate across and sell to different European markets, because, for example, they do not have to set up separate manufacturing facilities in order to produce different components for different companies (something smaller business would not have the resources to do) and so increases the likely hood that those companies can sell to those markets.
Also, 'Blatant corruption'? where is the EU corrupt? some EU member countries are quite corrupt, but the EU? Not an Issue I have ever heard of, this sounds like UKIP nonsense.
And really, Sweden, Denmark, the Netherlands, France are going to shit? these are countries which regularly get named in the top highest percentage of best places to live. As I said, The situation of Portugal, Spain and Italy is their own doing. For years these countries broke the rules of the single currency set by the EU, they are paying the price for their governments failure to adhere to their commitments, as well as failing to tackle corruption in their ranks and nation wide tax evasion. This is what you don't understand, different economies have done differently under the Euro because of the way their own politicians have handled it. As nice as you may find it to shout boo at the EU, it told these countries time and time again not to brake the guidelines set for use of the currency, something they willingly agreed to.
Also, EU immigrants are 4 times less likely to claim benefits than British nationals (1% of population for EU migrants compared to 4% for Native Britons). I would rather have them here than those 4% of so called Natives.
And if you think the EU is the one causing economic collapse and loss of freedom, i have 3 letters for you: U S A.
#124 - infernis (09/12/2014) [-]
>Germany is practically the only one benefiting from it.
And it's not even the general population, it's the big corporations. We, the public, don't feel our 'best Germany we ever had', as our federal president put it, at all. What we feel is cold progression and one campaign to 'save' Greece with taxpayer money after another.
#63 - thewaronbeingcool (09/12/2014) [-]
I am bong too
I don't hate the EU because it's foreign, I dislike it because it's taking away my nation's sovereignty. It's eventually going to end up as the united states of Europe, and I don't Britain to be the equivalent of Texas or something. I want it to remain a real country.
#71 - kristovsky (09/12/2014) [-]
The EU never "took" anyone's sovereignty, all powers given to the EU were willingly agreed to by every member state, by the Leaders our people elected to represent us. At most it's a pooling or sharing of powers at an EU level, which in a world where European countries are quickly diminishing, is very necessary for continued prosperity.
Besides, what's so bad about an USE? (And let's be realistic, nothing like that is happening any time soon, very few people in Europe want it) Scotland, Wales and England have been part of the United Kingdom for 300 years, has that diminished anyone's individual sense of nationality? Have they become "non countries" because of it? Of course not (they are each called "constituent countries of the UK" are they not?), The only thing it has done is bestow people with a new Nationality, and without the UK each of those countries would never have come anywhere near to amounting what they did.
Whether you like it or not, feudal nationalism does not have any place in a Successful, 21st century Europe. For our continued prosperity, we need power, and for that we (everyone in Europe) need the EU. It's no coincidence that the model is being copied by every one else, The African Union? NAFTA? ASEAN? The South American Union? all came about because of the EU model, hell Russia is even trying to create their own "Russosphere" type trade block (at a basic level that is at the heart of the Ukraine crisis, but that is a separate issue). Not investing in the EU and keeping ourselves, at least at a basic level, away from an affiliation to a larger block will leave us in the past, while the rest of the world speeds ahead.
Although from what I have seen, the past is where most British people seem to want to live.
#135 - TooWierdToLive (09/12/2014) [-]
Every single argument regarding this whole matter, whether it be about scottish and english relations or the EU as a whole is going to have their own defences so it's really just down to each individuals opinion on how strong those defences are to them.
I just wanted to point out in the first place that in the future we're going to have to accept that to be successful we will have to unite into a bigger and stronger state, this has evidently already happened with the introduction of the EU and it wasnt really forced, it was a natural unification of, on the most part, mutual agreements. We all get angry in the EU, such as the UK, Germany or France when we get pulled down by countries that suffer more, such as greece, italy or Spain but we forget that that's what the whole concept was about, helping each other out in bad times but also benefiting from eachother when the economy and everything is going well (which is just starting to happen).
Look i'm as patriotic as an americunt when it comes to England but the way i see it if we finally took the time to stop killing eachother with swords and shit after hundreds of years (i'm looking at you france and scotland...). Then surely we can just chill out and accept that this is the natural evolution of our nations.
Plus, the Irish have already joined in on this fecal matter and if it keeps going on then the welsh are going to want to get a piece of it aswell, nothing good will come of that.
#128 - Ashtaroth (09/12/2014) [-]
I would strongly recommend NOT using NAFTA as an example of successful economic union. That piece of legislation cost the U.S. more than all the wars we've been dancing around in for the past decade. It drove jobs out of the country in a flood that's only now starting to taper off as those business owners start to realize that Americans need jobs in order to have money to buy products. Mexico has a pretty good economy now because of it, but only because it quite literally leached the jobs it now has from the U.S. as a result of NAFTA, yet their country is still hopelessly corrupt and essentially run by drug lords, which still drives hundreds of thousands of impoverished people a year to cross the border and weasel their way into the government sponsored support systems of the U.S.
If our government over here didn't cook the books the way it does, our declared unemployment rate would be upwards of 12% instead of the 6ish they say it is. They just don't count people that aren't actually on unemployment benefits or who have totally given up trying to find non-existent work and are basically just waiting to die. If there was one specific piece of work that can squarely bear the blame for America being the way it is now, it's NAFTA.
Hopefully other regions trying to do similar stuff realize what they're digging in and make some corrections. America was at it's absolute best in pretty much every way when national pride wasn't a bad thing and we produced jobs for Americans, so other Americans could get rich off that labor. Now we "spread the love" everywhere because apparently the 3rd world is too stupid to improve itself for some reason and we need to help with that for some equally nebulous reason, the wealthy get insanely wealthy, and everyone else in the country suffers. The only reason we aren't a third world country is because our buildings aren't run down enough yet to fit the role and the government uses Monopoly money to stay afloat.
#158 - anonymous (09/12/2014) [-]
As a descendant from an almost strictly Irish family, I would very much like to see all of Ireland as one island again.
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