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Syvar    

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Syvar Avatar Level 178 Comments: Soldier Of Funnyjunk
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Gender: male
Age: 24
Date Signed Up:11/15/2009
Last Login:4/28/2013
Location:Canada
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    Lol Minecraft Lol Minecraft
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    I'm an asshole I'm an asshole

latest user's comments

#22 - Let me tell you about homestuck. Nice sprite edit. 04/03/2012 on Fucking do it! 0
#4 - Hey, they're Homestuck fans, not weeaboos. Btw, Homestuck is s…  [+] (1 new reply) 03/31/2012 on Dem Whites +2
#11 - redlikewine (03/31/2012) [-]
homestuck is the greatest and cruelest thing ever. there are no exceptions.
but seriously 5/8 of my favorite characters are dead.
#3 - Let me tell you about Homestuck. 03/31/2012 on Dem Whites +1
#118 - Win 03/31/2012 on Here we go... 0
#177 - They're not roots, they're tubers you ass. Next time you try t… 03/30/2012 on Potato in ass +2
#474 - Sorry I did not respond sooner. The times I am on FJ are rathe… 03/30/2012 on Atheists... -1
#214 - I must agree. A flawed god makes more sense. Like, maybe one w… 03/26/2012 on Atheists... 0
#197 - I know it's contradictory. On a related note, C.S. Lewis (who …  [+] (2 new replies) 03/26/2012 on Atheists... +1
User avatar #204 - veryevilmen (03/26/2012) [-]
I don't have any problem with the idea of god exactly but I find it impossible to believe in the Christian god. Any God that was all loving, all powerful, and all knowing couldn't possibly have messed up so badly with the world. So many bad things happen that shouldn't happen if a perfect God were in charge. Feel free to post your complaints with this zlamous I actually like to get in religious debates so i'm up for it.
User avatar #214 - Syvar (03/26/2012) [-]
I must agree. A flawed god makes more sense. Like, maybe one who created the universe and made gentle pushes towards certain key events or something? That would make a lot more sense to me. But they can't make up that religion now. They have their story and they're sticking with it. If they didn't no one would believe them. That's one of the key pro-religion arguments, that it's been believed for a long time, how could it be wrong?
#192 - I hate them because my friend Kevin said we only have morals b…  [+] (4 new replies) 03/26/2012 on Atheists... +2
User avatar #194 - veryevilmen (03/26/2012) [-]
I'm an atheist too but what you just said was contradictory. You said you don't believe in God and then you said you hated him. Did you mean you just hate religion overall?
User avatar #197 - Syvar (03/26/2012) [-]
I know it's contradictory. On a related note, C.S. Lewis (who Christians love to quote) said he was angry with god for not existing. Me? I hate the concept of god, mostly.
User avatar #204 - veryevilmen (03/26/2012) [-]
I don't have any problem with the idea of god exactly but I find it impossible to believe in the Christian god. Any God that was all loving, all powerful, and all knowing couldn't possibly have messed up so badly with the world. So many bad things happen that shouldn't happen if a perfect God were in charge. Feel free to post your complaints with this zlamous I actually like to get in religious debates so i'm up for it.
User avatar #214 - Syvar (03/26/2012) [-]
I must agree. A flawed god makes more sense. Like, maybe one who created the universe and made gentle pushes towards certain key events or something? That would make a lot more sense to me. But they can't make up that religion now. They have their story and they're sticking with it. If they didn't no one would believe them. That's one of the key pro-religion arguments, that it's been believed for a long time, how could it be wrong?
#190 - I am an atheist because I refuse to believe in a god that coul…  [+] (12 new replies) 03/26/2012 on Atheists... +11
User avatar #425 - Korosia (03/26/2012) [-]
Hey. I know this reply is probably in direct violation with your last point, so feel free to ignore it. But for the last year, I've felt exactly the same way you do. I genuily hated religion, and I was angry at the idea of God: as you said, how could be possibly be loving and also allow such suffering? There was no way he could possibly exist.

The thing is, some of my best friends were Christian. They never brought it up directly, but sometimes I would be angry at something that had happened, and they would explain their Christian viewpoint on the situation. For a long time, I didn't get it, but then someone lead me through it from the beginning. I am now a Christian, but it was the fact that suffering existed that actually turned me to God.

I'm not trying to convince you to become a Christian, or to force my views on you. You are completly free to make your own choice. But there are a lot of bad Christians out there; the ones that choke you with their views, or say that all gay people should be burnt, or people who become so bigotted that they start judging (and even punishing) others' sins while ignoring their own (which, if I understand correctly, was kind of what your Grandmother was doing). I guess I just want to try and serve as a antidote to that.

You said that if God was omniscient, he would have known that Humans would rebel as soon as he created them. And in a way that's true. But one of the major points is that we were created with a choice. We have free will. Think of it like a friend, or partner: you don't want a girlfriend or friend who just does everything you say, and never has any thoughts of their own. You want someone who is able to think for themselves, make their own choices, live their own lives.
User avatar #426 - Korosia (03/26/2012) [-]
This is quite an important point, and I kind of feel like I'm not doing it justice. I guess its like in modern gaming. You know all those games where you can control your teammates, and send them to different positions, or make them protect certain areas? Well, most of them are pretty crappy because the AI only do what you tell them to. They can't think for themselves. Compare that against playing online with friends. Each player is thinking for himself, but they're working together as well. The players *could* decide that rather than protecting the base, they're going to rambo in on the enemies. Or camp their teams spawn and stick dynamite to everyone's face. But (generally) they don't. Each player does what's best for their team, but they do so through choice.

So with God, he created us with choice, because that leads to the best gaming experience, so to speak. However, as you said, surely if he can see the future, he must have known that we would choose to rebel. Well, often many Athiest ask of Christians "Surely if God knows the future, we don't have a choice at all". And I believe that's true: I don't think God knows 100% what's going to happen. I'm not sure if you've ever read the Night Angel Trilogy (if not, you should. Its a fantasic series of books). In it, one of the characters is a prophet, so can see the future. But he describes it like a river: he can see that certain events will turn it one way or the next, but not if the event will happen.

I guess its kind of like playing chess. You can look at the board and know that if you move your pawn there, then he'll probably move his queen there, and you can take that knight. But also, they could move their bishop, and you would have to move your rook. People who are really good at chess can see all of this, and I'm fairly sure most of the chess-playing AIs can probably map out the whole game. They can, almost literally, see the future. *But* that future is dependant on the choice of their opponent.
User avatar #427 - Korosia (03/26/2012) [-]
I'm not sure if that was the best example in the world, but hopefully it shows that God can be both know everything, but still be reliant on human choice. He can't force us to do anything, because that would remove our free will (and as I said above, that would be boring for everyone).

So, God creates the world (just as a side point, I very heavily reject creationism and very definatly believe in evolution, and the big bang theory. I don't know if God made the universe, or whether he came to being after the universe was created. But what I know of the science of the universe/earth's creation doesn't contradict God, or vice versa).

He creates the world to be perfect, and I think that's quite easy to see. When you walk through an old forest, or wandering down the beach, or watching the sunset, I think you are seeing a piece of the world as it was when he created it. And I think very few people would be able to reject its beauty.

Eventually humans evolved from their ape-like ancestors, and began to develop conscious thought. God gave us the world, as beautiful as it was, and put us in charge. Not to enslave it, as we seem so intent to do nowadays, but to enhance it. A gardener is in charge of the garden, but works *with* the flowers, making them become even more beautiful that they would have already been. So too with humanity.

But we decided we didn't really feel like doing that. We kind of went, "yeah, like, its nice and all. But i would prefer it like this". And by mucking around with everything, we created what is known as sin. The word is often misused and thrown about be people who pretend to be Christians. The idea of sin is really the building blocks of Christianity, and its incredibly frustrating to see people use it so carelessly.
User avatar #429 - Korosia (03/26/2012) [-]
As you might have guessed, what I'm explaining here is the Adam and Eve story. And as I'm sure you know, they got kicked out. Many people are like "well, if God loved us, why did he kick us out".

Well, I like to think of it like a school. As the first humans, we were still very young as a species, and there were many many things we didn't know, much like students at a school. And God said, "ok, I'm going to teach you all these cool things. But to do that, you have to follow a couple of rules". This is like anything in life: when you are new to something, you are given excess rules, which more often than not don't seem to make sense to you. When you learn to drive, you have to always check the mirrors before and after every manuover. Or (and this one is really annoying), when you're reversing and you want to go forwards again, you have to stop, put on the handbrake, change gear, release the handbrake and then go. Everybody knows that as soon as you get your license you're not going to check your mirrors, and you're just going to change gear while rolling backwards. But while you're learning, you need the extra rules to keep you (and others) safe.

Going back to the school metaphor, you're told to wear uniform, and not eat in class, and so on. These things don't change your ability to learn, but are still required while you learn *how* to learn. That's (as far as I'm aware) what the story of Eden is saying: Adam and Eve weren't allowed the apple not because they weren't good enough, or God just felt like trolling them, but because they weren't old enough yet. 15 year olds begrudge not being able to drive, but would you really want to let a bunch of them loose behind the wheel? Of course not.

So we had a choice: accept God's rules and enjoy the wonderful world he had created, and be able to grow with him, and learn from him. Or reject his rules and try to do it our way. Unfortuantly, we chose the second one.
User avatar #430 - Korosia (03/26/2012) [-]
And this is where the school metaphor really comes in handy. Imagine you had a kid who was ignorig the rules of your classroom. And not just eating gum, or wearing a short skirt, but swearing at the teacher. Or throwing tables. What would you do with them? Now, as human's we generally do one of two things. We could ignore them, but then that would ruin any chance of anybody learning. Everyone in the classroom would have to put up with that. They would have to try and learn out of grafitteed books, or would go in one day to find the project they had been working on smashed up. And that's not fair on those students. So clearly we cannot allow such people to remain in the classroom.

A large amount of humans would then opt for the second option: punishment. They would ban the kid from ever entering the school again. But is that really fair on the kid? I mean, what if they had a sudden change of heart, and decided they really did want to learn. So complete expulsion isn't really a good option either.

Now, my school had a lot of these sorts of kids. And at first they would just try the first option, and then they would try the second option, but only for a few days. And while that stopped it being harsh to the kid, it didn't really work either. Because after the few days was up, they would just go back to their old ways.

So instead, my school had a thing called "internal exclusion". Basically, this was where kids like that would sit in their own classroom. They'd be given their work by the teachers, but they wouldn't be allowed back into the class until they had learnt how to behave; until they had accepted the rules and stopped messing things up for all the other students. And for a large part, it worked. They're were a good number of students who refused to accept the rules, and would much rather do their own thing. But there were some who would eventually accept the rules, and be allowed back into the classroom.
User avatar #431 - Korosia (03/26/2012) [-]
And that's really what God did to us. We decided that we didn't want to follow his rules, and would rather do our own thing. So rather than ruin the perfection of heaven, he moved us to a different world (or moved himself to a different world. No-ones 100% on which one, though I tend to vear towards the second one, given how much beauty there is on this world already). He didn't let us stay and ruin everything, nor did he kick us out forever. He just moved us tempereraly, so that we may learn. We decided we didn't want us to live his way, so he respected that choice. He gave us our own world, and let us screw it up to our hearts content.

But most people aren't content. I would struggle to think of anyone who is happy that the world is in such a mess. And as hard as it is for us, it is much harder for God. He created this beautiful world for us, and wanted to live with us in it, but we rejected him and have been destroying his beauty ever since. He longs to destroy sin forever, and come join us again. But he is patient, and loving. He is giving us the time we need to learn how to behave in the classroom. Rather than destroying us, because we are broken, he is trying to fix us instead.

I'm not sure how coherent any of that was. Like I said, I'm not trying to convert you. I just had the same questions as you not too long ago. And lets face it, many people who call themselves Christian spend a lot of time building some serious bad rep for us. I guess I just wanted to counter a piece of that.
User avatar #474 - Syvar (03/30/2012) [-]
Sorry I did not respond sooner. The times I am on FJ are rather sporadic. I'll start with my simple first impression: You are awesome.

Thank you. You didn't get mad, or defensive, you clearly stated your thought process, and you didn't jump from point to point. You gave me a well written and well thought out response, which is rare in religious discussions. And it makes sense. Everything you said was logical and understandable. I have been arguing against god for years, and no one before you replied with anything quite like this. I don't even know how to describe the effect this has had on me properly. It won't change my mind, but it made me think about this. I love being made to think. You've restored a bit of my faith in humanity at least. I was beginning to think no one would ever provide a suitable argument for god, that he was just a scapegoat with only topic changes for defense. Thank you.
User avatar #192 - Syvar (03/26/2012) [-]
I hate them because my friend Kevin said we only have morals because of the bible. He got caught cheating on a test and said it was ok because it didn't say anything about cheating in the bible. But I love my grandma. And Kevin is still cool. Their religion just let them do such heartless and insane things. I don't really hate anyone, I just hate things they do and say. I don't hate anyone. Except god.
User avatar #194 - veryevilmen (03/26/2012) [-]
I'm an atheist too but what you just said was contradictory. You said you don't believe in God and then you said you hated him. Did you mean you just hate religion overall?
User avatar #197 - Syvar (03/26/2012) [-]
I know it's contradictory. On a related note, C.S. Lewis (who Christians love to quote) said he was angry with god for not existing. Me? I hate the concept of god, mostly.
User avatar #204 - veryevilmen (03/26/2012) [-]
I don't have any problem with the idea of god exactly but I find it impossible to believe in the Christian god. Any God that was all loving, all powerful, and all knowing couldn't possibly have messed up so badly with the world. So many bad things happen that shouldn't happen if a perfect God were in charge. Feel free to post your complaints with this zlamous I actually like to get in religious debates so i'm up for it.
User avatar #214 - Syvar (03/26/2012) [-]
I must agree. A flawed god makes more sense. Like, maybe one who created the universe and made gentle pushes towards certain key events or something? That would make a lot more sense to me. But they can't make up that religion now. They have their story and they're sticking with it. If they didn't no one would believe them. That's one of the key pro-religion arguments, that it's been believed for a long time, how could it be wrong?

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