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#462 - Being a bit nitpicky but OK to clarify: with daggers. And he b…  [+] (1 reply) 06/21/2016 on (GoT SPOILER) - Most... 0
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#464 - jettom (06/21/2016) [-]
The dagger part is an original for the series and not in the books, but yes, he did slaughter them. He also fucked Stannis over with "20 good men".

Ramsay has had an insane plot armor just to set him up as the villain of the North, yet Jon has an even greater plot armor and won the fight.
#207 - He fought "Yara" didn't he?  [+] (1 reply) 06/21/2016 on (GoT SPOILER) - Most... 0
#215 - anon (06/21/2016) [-]
The ironborn aren't exactly great warriors maybe at one point but didn't they basically just get their shit kicked in once the war was over and they returned.
#24 - While it may be justified as the actions of the Lord of Light …  [+] (38 replies) 06/20/2016 on (GoT SPOILER) - Most... +46
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#374 - angelious (06/21/2016) [-]
while i agree with the arrows part.

as far as the duel between bastards goes: we had a guy who is called "good at melee and ranged combat" versus jon snow, who was called the best combatant north has
#332 - anon (06/21/2016) [-]
I was thinking the same going in, they brought him back to life some seven episodes earlier, it seems unlikely that they'll take him this far and then just kill him. But with how poorly he was doing most of the battle I was honestly believing they would do it, especially when he started getting trampled, I was thinking this was is for our hero. They managed to make me believe he was in danger, which was impressive, but it just goes to show how valuable all these years of bloodshed have been, even when someone's got as much plot armor as Jon did going into this episode you (at least I) still fear for their safety. also, in the moment Ramsay was probably pretty fucking panicked, not thinking straight, there have been plenty of times when playing video games I kept using a failing strategy because I was panicked, and that was in a video game, an actual life or death situation would be like that times a thousand, add to that Ramsay's confidence shaken by losing the battle earlier and having the gate torn down in less than a minute
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#401 - severepwner (06/21/2016) [-]
It still pisses me off that despite that the show has so much shit writing, plot armor, zero plot armor for characters we kinda like, infinite plot armor for characters we hate, a lot of anti climactic writing in some areas, among other critiques and nitpicks. It pisses me off that despite all this, they STILL manage to manipulate me all the time, for years. They dangle characters in my face to make me fear, then save them to make me happy. They make me lose all hope, then give a shitty deus ex machina that I couldn't appreciate more. They somehow make me lose my "expect the worst" instincts and hope for a character go maybe go somewhere, then take them from me again in a shittily written death. The fact they still have me on their puppet strings pisses me off, they hardly deserve it.
#310 - anon (06/21/2016) [-]
I think that part was just to show how skilled jon is. He is able to react fast enough to protect himself from the arrows. Aiming for the lower parts of the body would mean one less arrow for a potential kill shot. Also, ramsey did not have a sword but a dagger in which he dropped for some reason.
#307 - anon (06/21/2016) [-]
Mount and Blade? For anyone who played, you'll get what I mean when you confront archers with a sword
#286 - hurleyy (06/21/2016) [-]
I felt like the arrows not hitting him was like supposed to be a sign from a higher power that John was supposed to live, since the Red Witch said that the lord of light brought him back for a reason and wouldnt have if he didnt want John alive. I figured the incredible luck that he had not getting hit was supposed to say its fate that he takes back his home.

But then again im probably just an idiot looking way too deep into this shit
#205 - anon (06/21/2016) [-]
You gonna eat dat ?
#189 - sirlorge (06/21/2016) [-]
You should definitely check out the behind the scenes of the episode. Iwan Iwon? I cant recall Ramsay's actor's name talks about how Ramsay Bolton still expected the Stark nobility in Jon to present an opportunity to escape using his wiles. He hadn't realized just how much he had broken their humanity in that moment. Also he didnt have a sword on him nor did he have nearly enough skill as a swordsman to match an angry Jon Snow. As Pod says, there's fighting, then there's a different sort of fighting. plus, Ramsay was out of his element, which is being in control.
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#187 - gcloud (06/21/2016) [-]
i really only remember ramsey use a bow, honesty if he did use a sword i mightve thought it was outa place
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#158 - rebornpotato (06/21/2016) [-]
I'd think that maybe the lord of light was protecting him or something of the sort, and ramsey was gonna get fucking rekt no matter what he was surrounded by men, and he also didn't have a sword.
#138 - anon (06/21/2016) [-]
I feel like the writing is getting worse without the guidance of George RR Martin
#129 - anon (06/21/2016) [-]
Ramasy has used a sword before but against much more helpless opponents, plus Jon is basically at this point the best swordsman in Westeros The Hound and Mountain are more warriors that swordman but could still probably kill his ass
#97 - slias (06/21/2016) [-]
In the books Ramsay is described as being a reckless but enthusiastic fighter, he was raised by his mother and trained to fight by a servant. He's not a skilled swordsman.
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#62 - Ripsometime (06/20/2016) [-]
The first volley missed because they fired while he was stationary and then he charged towards them on horseback, they didn't predict his movements. The second volley mostly hit his horse and one arrow grazed his leg.

As for the second point, Ramsey was fucked either way, Jon is better trained with the sword, although Ramsey had a chance of killing Jon when he killed the Giant. No matter what he did he was going to die since he was surrounded, but he might have gotten off a lucky shot with an arrow, I guess he was just desperate.
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#56 - whatareyouon (06/20/2016) [-]
>1) Jon was right on the front line archers are trained to aim just over the front line to have the greatest effect in hitting enemies not allies, however Ramsay was a fucking douche bag and probably had the archers aim a lot closer to the actually melee than normal. Only the arrows falling short would have a chance to windup in the melee. (you can see this as only 5-10 arrows are seen falling short at any given time instead of hundreds raining down)
>2) since when has Ramsey fought with a sword on equal terms against anyone? He's only good at backstabbing people. Jon was making a lot of those shots pretty close calls bringing his shield up at the last possible moment. either way it was very over for him.
#207 - Bloodgartham (06/21/2016) [-]
He fought "Yara" didn't he?
#215 - anon (06/21/2016) [-]
The ironborn aren't exactly great warriors maybe at one point but didn't they basically just get their shit kicked in once the war was over and they returned.
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#45 - jettom (06/20/2016) [-]
2) We've seen Ramsey's prowess with a sword and melee combat.

No we have not.

We'e seen Ramsay's prowess with 2 daggers. It's established in the books that Jon Snow is a far superior swordsman than him, as he has no proper training in the usage of a sword.

Ramsay's only hope was the arrows. If it was a 1v1 with swords it'd be more or less Arya Stark vs The Mountain.
#462 - Bloodgartham (06/21/2016) [-]
Being a bit nitpicky but OK to clarify: with daggers. And he beat trained ironborn. He didn't just beat them he absolutely slaughtered them. And yes I am aware of them not being the pinnacle of swordsmen. On top of that Jon was injured, exhausted and was just out of a battle where he almost died through suffecation. Ramsay was well rested. While I did not expect Ramsay nor woudl I want a full blown fight,I think there should have been some scene with Ramsay putting up a fight, some sort of resistance, even a futile attempt with dagger or sword.

(And Ramsay could have sniped Jon instead of the giant, not that it would prevent his defeat.
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#464 - jettom (06/21/2016) [-]
The dagger part is an original for the series and not in the books, but yes, he did slaughter them. He also fucked Stannis over with "20 good men".

Ramsay has had an insane plot armor just to set him up as the villain of the North, yet Jon has an even greater plot armor and won the fight.
#461 - Bloodgartham has deleted their comment.
#429 - anon (06/21/2016) [-]
Or three Meryn Fucking Trant vs any boy whore with a sword
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#43 - haroldsaxon (06/20/2016) [-]
A surprsing amount of people don't actually get hit in arrow showers
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#269 - iamchicken (06/21/2016) [-]
Arrow volleys have been proven even in history that they aren't exactly the most accurate.
#31 - relant (06/20/2016) [-]
Jon´s plot armor is...making this series hell for me. I liked Ramsay for he was interesting character. Jon is.....My god...
#73 - alfrsa (06/21/2016) [-]
Why the downvotes? He has a point...
#204 - sirlorge (06/21/2016) [-]
Plot armor? The man literally died last season. And I'm using literally correctly as well

Plus he didn't exactly prance through the battle, besides the fact that his horse was shot from under him, he still stands an kills multiple disoriented enemies while constantly being assisted by his army. Chances of getting hit by archer that cant see you are believably low enough that it's not feasible to call his survival plot armor.
"Why didn't Ramsay shoot his leg in Winterfell?" Because the moment he does, he becomes more of a porcupine than Rickon. His only satisfaction would be a killing shot. Which he was unable to make.
Jon has proven himself time and again a capable fighter and leader. The episode also does a great job of creating tension with the idea that Jon is about to die, especially when you consider his earlier petition to Melissandra.
So plot armor my ass.
#211 - anon (06/21/2016) [-]
>Says he has no plot armor
>Proceeds to point out that he's died and been BROUGHT BACK TO LIFE

That's plot armor right there. When even death isn't enough to kill you.
#460 - anon (06/21/2016) [-]
Then I guess, Daenerys being immune to plot armor is also plot armor. It's magic, it ain't gotta explain itself. Any ways, you already knew resurrection was possible in the show, via the brothers
#237 - sirlorge (06/21/2016) [-]
Okay, I suppose we should just disregard this part of GoT lore that was established as a possibillity long before Jon died. Sorry Thoros, you're fired
While we're at it, should we take away Dany's dragons, because they can rescue her at perilous times. Also tell Cersei her zombie giant cant play mortal kombat with the fanatics. Maybe don't forget to tell Bran to stop having visions, in fact his uncle shouldn't have even returned, that was too convenient. Fuck it, you know what? Burn all the books because Lady Stoneheart shouldn't be a thing. In fact, just get The Hound to round everyone up on his way out, since he clearly got got a long tomtime ago. I'm certainly not waiting for the return of Naymeria, and dont get me started on this tall list labled "Tyrion". And man, I was so sad when Jaime died from that infection when they cut off his hand, I heard they found him in the same river as Arya by Essos, because fuck logic!
It's almost as if the genre's called fantasy! Can you believe it?
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#196 - gcloud (06/21/2016) [-]
well his point is kinda dumb... any show there are gonna be main characters that wont die without something litterally massive.
Jon and Daenerys carry 70% of the shows future. killing one without someway to replace them would be like shooting the show in the foo- head, it would litteraly destroy this show.
yes he's right jon has plot armor, but if he didnt this wouldnt be much of a show.
#198 - alfrsa (06/21/2016) [-]
I totally get what you're saying and all the "pointless" death both in the books and series more than makes up for their plot armor. But come on, the way he just stood there just trying to gobble down arrows - could have picked up a shield at some point...
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#209 - gcloud (06/21/2016) [-]
yes absolutly, this last episode mightve been alittle much in terms of plot armor, but im arguing that saying "Jon´s plot armor is...making this series hell for me" is a stupid thing to be upset about.

and as much the arrow gobbling was alittle much it really painted the picture that Jon has a death wish. Litterally facing a whole army by himself, with no fear... death changes a person... especially if it was your death.
#210 - alfrsa (06/21/2016) [-]
Hadn't looked at it that way... I figured he had house Stark to live for, at least for the time being. Thanks!
#200 - alfrsa (06/21/2016) [-]
I guess what I mean is the way as it was portrayed was just too Hollywood-like, all he had left to do was walk away from an explosion or something.
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#30 - adrilazzaro (06/20/2016) [-]
as for #1 yeah its pretty strong plot armor but he did get his by an arrow to the leg i believe, it was just a graze though
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#27 - Faz (06/20/2016) [-]
The No.2 Point may be explained when Ramsay and Jon are speaking, Ramsay says "The way the people in the North talk about you you're the greatest swordsman who ever walked " and then Ramsay proceeds to watch Jon kill the fuck out of like 20 men throughout the battle, maybe at that point he feared Jon's sword fighting ability so much that he though his only hope would be a lucky arrow to the face.
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#404 - mintea (06/21/2016) [-]
Not just any men, 20 good men. Ramsay knew he was fucked.
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