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#7824
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jokeface (01/30/2013) [-] Today I had a thought that may or may not bring the theist-vs-atheist war to an end.
I'll start by addressing the atheists. What is the prevailing belief that you have regarding what happens to you when you die? Most of you would say "Nothing, the brain shuts down and our consciousness ends." Fair enough?
Okay, now the theists. Specifically the Judeo-Christian theists. What does Scripture say? If you believe in God/Jesus and worship only Him, you will receive eternal life in heaven. But if you don't, what happens? Scripture says you receive death.
But wait, the body is already dead. You can't die twice, right? Well, clearly God is not talking about the death of the body, but rather the death of the spirit. So I have to wonder: What if "hell" just means your spirit (or, for the sake of this argument, your mind) shuts down forever? Wouldn't that satisfy both the Judeo-Christian hell as well as atheistic ideas about death? Yea, I know, the Bible talks about fire and stuff, but maybe that's just a metaphor for something.
My point is that what if both theists AND atheists are right about the afterlife? The theists are right because they go to heaven, and the atheists are right because their mind/spirit dies.
Thoughts?
I'll start by addressing the atheists. What is the prevailing belief that you have regarding what happens to you when you die? Most of you would say "Nothing, the brain shuts down and our consciousness ends." Fair enough?
Okay, now the theists. Specifically the Judeo-Christian theists. What does Scripture say? If you believe in God/Jesus and worship only Him, you will receive eternal life in heaven. But if you don't, what happens? Scripture says you receive death.
But wait, the body is already dead. You can't die twice, right? Well, clearly God is not talking about the death of the body, but rather the death of the spirit. So I have to wonder: What if "hell" just means your spirit (or, for the sake of this argument, your mind) shuts down forever? Wouldn't that satisfy both the Judeo-Christian hell as well as atheistic ideas about death? Yea, I know, the Bible talks about fire and stuff, but maybe that's just a metaphor for something.
My point is that what if both theists AND atheists are right about the afterlife? The theists are right because they go to heaven, and the atheists are right because their mind/spirit dies.
Thoughts?
#7832 to #7824
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darthtomale (01/30/2013) [-] there are many sects of christianity that believe that hell is not a second death. rather the destruction of both the consciousness and the body. this is not a new concept.
your theory ignores that a-theism is just that. the absence (a) of the belief in any superstition (theism). not simply the lack of a belief in an afterlife.
your theory ignores that a-theism is just that. the absence (a) of the belief in any superstition (theism). not simply the lack of a belief in an afterlife.
#7831 to #7824
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kanade ONLINE (01/30/2013) [-] This is the biggest load of crap ever. Your premise implies that atheism is the belief in nothing after death, it's not. It's the lack of belief in a heaven because there is no evidence.
So no your premise doesn't satisfy both because you still have yet to provide evidence for a heaven.
So no your premise doesn't satisfy both because you still have yet to provide evidence for a heaven.
#7886 to #7875
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jokeface (01/31/2013) [-] Well as you know, I believe in things like evolution, but I accept the idea that evolution could or could not be attributed to God, which leaves my theism faith-based. Seeing as I believe in God, however, I do attribute evolution to Him, yet if I lost my faith in Him I would still believe in a non-divine evolutionary process. Know what I mean?
#7888 to #7869
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jokeface (01/31/2013) [-] No, the reason you don't take it seriously (please use proper grammar) is because you think that if you can't personally observe it for yourself, that means it can't exist. That is a damn arrogant statement to make. That's like when people who claim there must be intelligent life elsewhere in the universe chastise people who don't believe in aliens, saying it's pretty arrogant to think we're the only life in the entire universe. Which actually brings up a good segue: Do you believe there could be aliens? You'd better not, given your stance on religion.
#7892 to #7888
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kanade ONLINE (01/31/2013) [-] I never said that it is impossible to exist now did i? Putting words in my mouth is a pathetic thing to do.
I am not saying that god does not exist because there is no evidence, i am saying that there is no reason to believe in a god because he doesn't exist. Atheism is merely a skeptical position, just like you would be skeptical if someone came over you and said that there are invisible dragons in his garage.
As for your aliens question. Considering my stance on religion which is DIFFERENT than what you assumed, i consider alien lifeforms to be more possible based on the fact that they could be tested, observed and verified where as god cannot be more verified than an invisible pink unicorn. However i remain skeptical of alien life until evidence is provided.
I am not saying that god does not exist because there is no evidence, i am saying that there is no reason to believe in a god because he doesn't exist. Atheism is merely a skeptical position, just like you would be skeptical if someone came over you and said that there are invisible dragons in his garage.
As for your aliens question. Considering my stance on religion which is DIFFERENT than what you assumed, i consider alien lifeforms to be more possible based on the fact that they could be tested, observed and verified where as god cannot be more verified than an invisible pink unicorn. However i remain skeptical of alien life until evidence is provided.
#7899 to #7896
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kanade ONLINE (01/31/2013) [-] I should've been more clear on that. What i meant was that i see religion today as a cultural/moral compass rather than a rational one which is why in a rational position i could not take the premise of a personal god dressed up and personalized in religion serious.
If i were to believe in a deity it would probably be one descibed by Spinoza.
If i were to believe in a deity it would probably be one descibed by Spinoza.
#7905 to #7899
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jokeface (01/31/2013) [-] I like to remind people that religion and faith are not the same thing. Religion is a system of doctrines and rituals surrounding a belief, whereas faith is just the belief itself. I myself am not religious, as I no longer go to church and don't partake in many of the rituals described in the Bible, although I do use the Bible for moral guidance and I pray to Jesus. I don't think that's too ridiculous.
When you say it's not rational, I couldn't agree more. Rationality, you see, from a theist's perspective, is merely man trying to understand the universe through he scope of man's own understanding. As a theist, I accept that there is more to life than what could possibly be understood by man, and so I put faith in a higher power to understand that stuff for me. We're not all-powerful, and we'll never know everything. With that being the case, I actually find it kind of silly that so many people seem to think otherwise.
When you say it's not rational, I couldn't agree more. Rationality, you see, from a theist's perspective, is merely man trying to understand the universe through he scope of man's own understanding. As a theist, I accept that there is more to life than what could possibly be understood by man, and so I put faith in a higher power to understand that stuff for me. We're not all-powerful, and we'll never know everything. With that being the case, I actually find it kind of silly that so many people seem to think otherwise.
#7912 to #7905
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kanade ONLINE (01/31/2013) [-] To me faith is nothing more than a cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. However unlike others i met you actually do accept evidence when it is provided and are open to other things which i highly respect for you.
You and i are not so different, we both accept that the universe is a huge mystery and neither of us are arrogant enough to say that we do know. Though from my skeptical position i see no reason to slap god onto something purely because we don't know things yet. We might never know the answer indeed but i prefer it to be a mystery in that case.
You and i are not so different, we both accept that the universe is a huge mystery and neither of us are arrogant enough to say that we do know. Though from my skeptical position i see no reason to slap god onto something purely because we don't know things yet. We might never know the answer indeed but i prefer it to be a mystery in that case.
#7918 to #7912
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jokeface (01/31/2013) [-] This is a scenario I've had floating around my head for some time.
If I was given an envelope containing the absolute truth about the universe, creation, our past, our future, etc, and I had the opportunity to open it and reveal this absolute truth to the world, I'd destroy it without even opening it. Because no matter who's right, that kind of knowledge would only create chaos. Chaos on a much greater scale than what the world sees today. Either existential nihilism resulting in widespread violence and death, or a rehashing of the Crusades, resulting in, again, widespread violence and death.
If I was given an envelope containing the absolute truth about the universe, creation, our past, our future, etc, and I had the opportunity to open it and reveal this absolute truth to the world, I'd destroy it without even opening it. Because no matter who's right, that kind of knowledge would only create chaos. Chaos on a much greater scale than what the world sees today. Either existential nihilism resulting in widespread violence and death, or a rehashing of the Crusades, resulting in, again, widespread violence and death.
#7994 to #7867
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noblexfenrir ONLINE (01/31/2013) [-] No, death doesn't matter in the slightest. Once you are dead, you're done, you can't help anyone else in the world, you can't further our knowledge on any topics, you can't discover new ideas in science, etc etc etc. Death is the one thing that DOESN'T matter because it's going to happen either way, no, reality is what matters with the people who live on past you.
#8044 to #8031
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jokeface (01/31/2013) [-] Not according to our beliefs. Based on the Christian premise that your afterlife is faith-based, if you accept Christ as your Lord and Savior you go to heaven, and if not, you go to hell. Therefore, atheists, pagans, Muslim, Wiccans, etc, will all go to hell because they reject Jesus Christ as the Messiah.
#8046 to #8044
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noblexfenrir ONLINE (01/31/2013) [-] You know what I meant, I was talking about if something is going to happen then it's not going to change (Not heaven or hell, grand scheme wise) simply because you believe something different. To be honest there is no reason not to believe we just rot in the ground after we're dead.
#7825 to #7824
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kingnarnode (01/30/2013) [-] well, as an atheist I am inclined to think what you're saying is untrue. However, I will pretend that yes, what you're saying is true. I don't know about you, but I would gladly accept my spirit or mind or whatever, to be shut down. Why you ask? Well simply eternity is an unfathomable amount of time, and I'm pretty sure I would go insane one way or another.
Now your theory as to this ending the "war", I highly doubt it. This really doesn't change anything, atheists will just think it's bullshit.
Now your theory as to this ending the "war", I highly doubt it. This really doesn't change anything, atheists will just think it's bullshit.
#7826 to #7825
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jokeface (01/30/2013) [-] What if you died and found yourself at the pearly gates and Jesus was there and He was like, "JokeFace was wrong, your spirit doesn't die, it goes into a fiery abyss to burn and suffer for all eternity. But you have one last chance to ask me for redemption and I'll save you from that and let you into heaven." How would you respond?
