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> hey anon, wanna give your opinion?
asd
User avatar #14 - TheBarneyStinson
Reply +60 123456789123345869
(09/28/2013) [-]
I'm generally against married couples not sharing a last name, or hyphenating. I don't care if the woman takes the man, or vice versa, but if their names are different, or hyphenated, it sends the message that one or both of them were too stubborn to give up their family name for the person they're supposed to love.
User avatar #34 to #14 - timmity
Reply -5 123456789123345869
(09/28/2013) [-]
i nknow what your saying but you sound mysoginist
User avatar #37 to #34 - admiralen
Reply -1 123456789123345869
(09/28/2013) [-]
are you retarded or something? he said that its fine as long as one of them gives it up you dumbass, he thinks they should share so either man takes the womans last name or woman takes the man
User avatar #39 to #37 - timmity
Reply 0 123456789123345869
(09/28/2013) [-]
ah, sorry, but still, people should have individuality.
User avatar #51 to #39 - admiralen
Reply 0 123456789123345869
(09/28/2013) [-]
whole point of marrying is to make you into one family, part of that is the last name
User avatar #53 to #51 - timmity
Reply 0 123456789123345869
(09/28/2013) [-]
No, in the current laws its the legal and financial binding of 2 people, not families, it used to be and still is in less developed countries tho. And here, since my mother kept her name, i have a 5 word name.
User avatar #54 to #53 - admiralen
Reply 0 123456789123345869
(09/28/2013) [-]
well your mother is a little special then, cause when you marry someone youre family with them theyre your wife or husband, you will have children with them that will be part of that family as well, youre no longer two separate people who live together, youre a family
User avatar #55 to #54 - timmity
Reply 0 123456789123345869
(09/28/2013) [-]
yes but the term "family name" is a little outdated, in fact i`ve only seen it printed on old books, modernly its sirname or last name or second name. You become a family, but you don`t have to become one name, why not both?
User avatar #66 to #55 - admiralen
Reply -1 123456789123345869
(09/28/2013) [-]
you wanting to not change your name just shows you dont want to leave your family to become hers
User avatar #67 to #66 - timmity
Reply 0 123456789123345869
(09/28/2013) [-]
wat. so i must becomes some-ones property, thats ******* retarded
User avatar #68 to #67 - admiralen
Reply 0 123456789123345869
(09/28/2013) [-]
if you think family is property youre more backwards than i thought
User avatar #69 to #68 - timmity
Reply 0 123456789123345869
(09/28/2013) [-]
you said to become hers, if your going to be ignorant of what you said yourself then just don`t breed, its that easy
User avatar #70 to #69 - admiralen
Reply 0 123456789123345869
(09/28/2013) [-]
read what i said before that, you leave YOUR family and become HERS, thus you become HER FAMILY, moron
User avatar #71 to #70 - timmity
Reply 0 123456789123345869
(09/28/2013) [-]
i want to become one PERSON, not a family, thats just stupid, you ove to woman, not the fammily
User avatar #72 to #71 - admiralen
Reply 0 123456789123345869
(09/28/2013) [-]
then dont get married
User avatar #74 to #72 - timmity
Reply 0 123456789123345869
(09/28/2013) [-]
oh wait, MOTHER FUKIN CIVIL PARTNERSHIPS!
User avatar #75 to #74 - admiralen
Reply 0 123456789123345869
(09/28/2013) [-]
thats not the same thing as marriage
User avatar #76 to #75 - timmity
Reply 0 123456789123345869
(09/28/2013) [-]
but it is the sharing of property and finance(for the most part, to an extent), which is what i would like from marraige, it shows great trust.
User avatar #73 to #72 - timmity
Reply 0 123456789123345869
(09/28/2013) [-]
but i want to become one financial identity with the woman/man i love!
User avatar #43 to #14 - ireallylikepotatoe
Reply -2 123456789123345869
(09/28/2013) [-]
Hyphenated names are the worst. Because you could end up having a last name that consists of like 10 actually last names. You could be Faggot Smith-Jones-Evans-Mcilrath-West-North-South-East-McGee-O'Neil-Patricks.

Hyphenated names are ridiculous.
User avatar #44 to #43 - HonkIfIDriveWell
Reply 0 123456789123345869
(09/28/2013) [-]
I have a hyphenated surname and I hate it so ******* much. I've decided that If I ever get married I'll take my wife's surname (unless she also has a hyphenated surname in which case I'm really ******.)
User avatar #45 to #44 - ireallylikepotatoe
Reply 0 123456789123345869
(09/28/2013) [-]
You could always get your name legally changed?
User avatar #48 to #45 - HonkIfIDriveWell
Reply +1 123456789123345869
(09/28/2013) [-]
I've thought about doing that but I don't want to alienate either side of my family just because my parents were selfish and stubborn.
User avatar #64 to #48 - bladebites
Reply 0 123456789123345869
(09/28/2013) [-]
They weren't necessarily being selfish and stubborn. I mean, most people would want their kid to have their last name.
User avatar #16 to #14 - mylazy
Reply 0 123456789123345869
(09/28/2013) [-]
Well, it kinda has to be both of them. If it was just one of them, then the other one would be the one to change their name.
User avatar #18 to #16 - TheBarneyStinson
Reply +2 123456789123345869
(09/28/2013) [-]
True. I just think it's a sacrifice both parties should be willing to make. There's really no way to tell if only one of them is against it, though.
User avatar #22 to #14 - lokiwins
Reply 0 123456789123345869
(09/28/2013) [-]
I'm a guy so I don't have to but I take quite a deal of pride in my family name and would hate to give it up.
User avatar #23 to #22 - TheBarneyStinson
Reply +11 123456789123345869
(09/28/2013) [-]
No one "has" It's traditionally the woman who does, but either party is allowed. And yeah, you grow up with your family name, and it becomes a part of you. I think that's why it's important to give it up. Whoever surrenders their name is basically saying "I'm sacrificing who I was, to become who I will be with you." A lot of people don't take marriage seriously these days, but in my opinion, it SHOULD be a big deal. You shouldn't be saying "I'll be with you until our first big fight", you should be saying "come hell or high water, I'll be with you."
#24 to #23 - adu
Reply +2 123456789123345869
(09/28/2013) [-]
Yes. This. When two people get married, they need to realize that it's a lifelong commitment to stand by them, to give up who you were and give yourself over to them, both for the man and woman. Or man/man, woman/woman, not playing favorites here. It's an agreement to love them for as long as they love you, not to just quit when times get rough or because someone made a mistake.

That being said, there are legitimate reasons why a woman would want to keep her maiden name, or at least hyphenate. It's mostly pragmatic when the woman is an already known author, or has academic accomplishments/written works/doctorates that would make things difficult for her if her name suddenly changed.
User avatar #77 to #24 - TheBarneyStinson
Reply 0 123456789123345869
(09/29/2013) [-]
There are exceptions to all rules, obviously. I was just generalizing.
#31 to #23 - anon id: be50e96a
Reply 0 123456789123345869
(09/28/2013) [-]
I wish I could give you my thumb good sir.
User avatar #27 to #14 - Kairyuka
Reply 0 123456789123345869
(09/28/2013) [-]
I'd actually love to have another last name, I'm only really attached to my first name (although I wish it was different)
User avatar #30 to #14 - BroadSword
Reply 0 123456789123345869
(09/28/2013) [-]
There are obvious cases when you should both have the same name. Two teachers at my school go married but their names were Cynn Smith, and Chris Wynn. Of course she wouldnt go Cynn Wynn, so she stayed Cynn Smith
User avatar #33 to #14 - greenstrongworld
Reply 0 123456789123345869
(09/28/2013) [-]
My mother kept her maiden name and when I asked her why, she just said "It would sound really damn weird." word for word.
#35 to #14 - anon id: b1b326f9
Reply 0 123456789123345869
(09/28/2013) [-]
In Belgium, maried couples keep their last names seperate, some might change it but i'm pretty sure about 90% don't change i've never heard anyone say "it's weird" or "it's stupid", I wouldn't change my family name because i love someone enad i wouldn't ever ask my wife to do so either. Traditions are different in different countries, you guys change your names to share it, we don't.
User avatar #78 to #35 - TheBarneyStinson
Reply 0 123456789123345869
(09/29/2013) [-]
I just think it's generall better for a family to share a name. To be able to introduce themselves by saying "Hi, we're the ____s." Yeah, it's largely a cultural thing, but I like to think I can see it beyond that. I always do my best to see thing sunbiassedly, and I admit that a lot of other cultures do things better than mine. This is just one point that I believe we got right.
User avatar #46 to #14 - iridium
Reply 0 123456789123345869
(09/28/2013) [-]
It depends on scenario. For instance, my Mother had nearly a 10 year gap between her second marriage and her third one, and her third husband was also remarrying, so because pretty much everything had her listed under her last name from her second marriage, it really wasn't worth the effort to change her last name any more, and her husband didn't mind either. Had nothing to do with stubbornness, it was just more practical to keep her last name from her second marriage rather than change it again.
User avatar #80 to #46 - TheBarneyStinson
Reply 0 123456789123345869
(09/29/2013) [-]
No offence to you or your mother, but I believe marriages should be done on the assumption they'll be permanent. Even if it's your third of fourth marriage, you shouldn't get it unless you're confident it would work. At that point, in my opinion, it would be worth the effort to change your name, because it's the last time you'll have to do it. Again, not doing that doesn't make you a bad person, and it doesn't mean you're in a bad relationship. It's just a pet peeve of mine that, in my opinion, is often, but not always, a symptom of selfishness.
User avatar #84 to #80 - iridium
Reply 0 123456789123345869
(09/29/2013) [-]
I understand your opinion, and of course she went into that marriage expecting it to be permanent. But when you're on the outside looking in it's a lot easier to judge than if you've actually gone through with it.

Also, saying "no offense" doesn't help, it actually makes it worse. I didn't even think that would really have been offensive until you brought it up like that.
User avatar #85 to #84 - TheBarneyStinson
Reply 0 123456789123345869
(09/29/2013) [-]
I get that attitude, but it shouldn't stop me from having an opinion. I'm very against the attitude that "if you haven't gone through it, you can't talk about it", because then the only people who could have public opinions about anything would all be biased.

The only reason I said "no offence" was because I didn't want to make it sound like I thought their marriage was a sham. I just didn't want to insinuate anything about your mothers life choices. If I hadn't said that, it would've sounded a lot more like I was saying "not everyone thinks marriage is as meaningless as your mom does", and that's not a sentiment I believe.
#61 to #14 - bladebites
Reply 0 123456789123345869
(09/28/2013) [-]
Or it could just mean they like their name and didn't want to change it, and they were okay with that. Doesn't mean either one is being "stubborn".    
I'm really proud of my family name and plan to keep my maiden name, and whether or not my husband wants to take it  if I get married  is his decision. I don't mind either way.   
You can love someone and not change the name you've been living your entire life with, and it doesn't mean you love them any less. My name is important to me, and it's important to my father that I keep it.    
Maybe my husband will have the same opinion about his, and we'll just keep our own. It doesn't have anything to do with whether or not we love each other.
Or it could just mean they like their name and didn't want to change it, and they were okay with that. Doesn't mean either one is being "stubborn".
I'm really proud of my family name and plan to keep my maiden name, and whether or not my husband wants to take it if I get married is his decision. I don't mind either way.
You can love someone and not change the name you've been living your entire life with, and it doesn't mean you love them any less. My name is important to me, and it's important to my father that I keep it.
Maybe my husband will have the same opinion about his, and we'll just keep our own. It doesn't have anything to do with whether or not we love each other.
User avatar #83 to #61 - TheBarneyStinson
Reply 0 123456789123345869
(09/29/2013) [-]
That's exactly what it means. "I like it and I don't wanna change" is pretty much the textbook definition of stubborn. You're supposed to like your name. That's why giving it up means something. Giving up your name means giving up who you were to become who you will be with them. That's what marriage should be. Keeping your name just because "you wanna" doesn't inherently mean you love them less than you love their name, just like having a cough doesn't inherently mean you have a cold. It's a symptom. If you can't make that one sacrifice that, in the grand scheme of things, doesn't even mean that much, what are the odds you'll be able to make sacrifices that actually matter when they come up 10 or 15 years down the line?
User avatar #87 to #83 - bladebites
Reply 0 123456789123345869
(09/29/2013) [-]
I'll make sacrifices fine, thanks. Frankly, it's not costing either one of us anything to keep our names.
My name means a lot to my father and myself, and it's important to both of us that I keep it. Not just to me, but to my father, who I care about immensely.
My boyfriend's mother feels the same way.
I don't mind at all, and he doesn't mind at all. I hardly see how this is "selfish" or "stubborn". It would be "stubborn" if either one of us cared to do it, but right now it's a mutual thing that neither of us mind. There's a difference between not doing something for someone when it's important to them and simply not doing something that will hurt us for literally no reason other than because society thinks it's "selfish".
"Selfish" is considering us "selfish" for not doing something neither of us care or want to do. We're happy how we are, we have no reason to change other than it bothers people we don't even know.
User avatar #88 to #87 - TheBarneyStinson
Reply 0 123456789123345869
(09/29/2013) [-]
Easier said than done. This is your first chance to make a meaningful sacrifice for your spouse, and you're opting out. Whether or not that's actually the case, that's the message it sends. You're not always going to have time to give your part of the story.
Again, this is in general. I've admit that there are exceptions. There always are. I even my started my initial comment with "in general" so people would realize "oh, he doesn't mean this is 100% true 100% of the time."
How would considering you selfish be a selfish act at all? You could argue rude, offensive, or inaccurate, but by no definition of the word is it selfish. And again, doing a selfish act doesn't make you a selfish person. Everyone commits selfish acts throughout their life. I never told you to change. I don't expect your relationship to revolve around my beliefs. As I said, I don't like it when married couples choose not to share a last name for anything but professional reasons. That's it. I'm not trying to impose a law to mandate it. I just don't like it, and don't believe it should be done.
User avatar #90 to #88 - bladebites
Reply 0 123456789123345869
(09/29/2013) [-]
Ah, I see what you mean.
I simply disagree with you because of the "his is your first chance to make a meaningful sacrifice for your spouse, and you're opting out." thing. I would agree wholeheartedly if it benefited someone, but all it is is sharing a name. I guess that's just me though, to me sharing a name doesn't mean anything, but so some people it means a lot in terms of family. It depends on the person.
So basically, I agree with you.
User avatar #65 to #14 - daentraya
Reply 0 123456789123345869
(09/28/2013) [-]
It's just names. If you really love each other, it shouldn't matter at all. And then theres the problem of the new name sounding weird. I have changed my last name, and i still only use it for signing official things
User avatar #82 to #65 - TheBarneyStinson
Reply 0 123456789123345869
(09/29/2013) [-]
Exactly. It's just names. That's why when people don't give up their names, it comes off as selfish, and sends the message "I love you less than I love my name." What does it matter if it sounds weird? You'll get over it. Who are you trying to impress that's going to judge you by your name?
User avatar #86 to #82 - daentraya
Reply 0 123456789123345869
(09/29/2013) [-]
Why the dahm do you give a dahm? The argument goes both ways; No truly happy married couple would give a dahm nor think it's selfish. That's just silly nitpicking. I have had this name my whole life, spoken those three in the same order, written them, have it in my signature, and as so, i would prefer to have kept it, so it's only on paper that my last name is different.
Why did you get the impression i care what other people think of my name? Others doesn't have the familiarity bias that i have. It'd be like changing Harry Potters name. Our brains have it encoded in our brains; it's the perfect name for him, and we couldn't imagine it any other way
User avatar #89 to #86 - TheBarneyStinson
Reply 0 123456789123345869
(09/29/2013) [-]
Most people have their name for their whole life. That's why it's important to sacrifice it. It shows that you're willing to abandon who you were without them to become who you will be with them. If you choose not to, you're basically saying "I choose my convenience over our relationship." Because you said that it'd be an issue if it sounded weird. It's not. People who care about you would adapt to your new name, just as the friends of millions of married people who done for decades. And no, it's not like changing Harry Potter's name. Not at all. Harry Potter is a billion dollar brand that would cost millions of dollars to effectively change the trademark, as well as confuse fans worldwide. You're just some guy. No one who cares about you now is going to care about you less or get confused if you change your name.
User avatar #91 to #89 - daentraya
Reply 0 123456789123345869
(09/30/2013) [-]
You're just looking straight through my points aren't you? Geez..
Didnt i just heavily imply i didnt care what people thought of my name? I was talking about familiarity bias, not how difficult it is to change a brandname or how other people get used to a name.
I just wanted you to say 'Yes, this argument goes both ways, since it's just a name and doesnt really matter, and not judging people as coming across as selfish is a bit rough when again 'it really doesnt matter'
So just get that and let's be done with this whole thing, cause its meaningless and going nowhere
User avatar #38 to #14 - funnyfuuuuuu
Reply +2 123456789123345869
(09/28/2013) [-]
> implying that married couples share a last name in all cultures
> implying all cultures that don't share a last name are inferior to yours
> implying one must change their last name to truly love someone
> implying their reasoning for not changing their names is stubbornness
User avatar #79 to #38 - TheBarneyStinson
Reply 0 123456789123345869
(09/29/2013) [-]
I didn't imply any of those things.
>I know it's cultural. Different cultures have different approcahes for everything. I admit that all other cultures do certain things better than my own culture. This is just one thing that, in my opinion, we did right.
>Believing that we got this ONE point right doesn't imply that other cultures are inferior at all. There's more to a culture than how they handle surnames.
>I didn't say they had I said that, if they live in a culture where that's the custom, not doing so sends that message, whether true or not.
>There are exceptions to everything. Again, though, in a lot of cases, it is. Most people who keep their surnames aren't celebrities and politicians who's names are already a "brand." They're people who just don't wanna.

I stand by everything I said.
#42 to #38 - xxxgnipsxxx
Reply -1 123456789123345869
(09/28/2013) [-]
your first two ">implying" are pretty irrelevant. He's obviously discussing broad western, christian marriage based culture. Like he made no reference to marriage customsof say, the Chinese, or the Sudanese, so why assume he's referring to them?
User avatar #59 to #14 - memeinmycoffee
Reply +2 123456789123345869
(09/28/2013) [-]
What if the man has a hyphenated last name?
User avatar #81 to #59 - TheBarneyStinson
Reply 0 123456789123345869
(09/29/2013) [-]
Again, I don't care who changes their name. I just believe that one of the names should be given up completely.
User avatar #9 - vanoreo
Reply -5 123456789123345869
(09/28/2013) [-]
she didn't write the books, she starred in the movies
User avatar #13 to #9 - TheBarneyStinson
Reply +46 123456789123345869
(09/28/2013) [-]
You have to get pretty familiar with a character to play them well once, let alone eight times. I'd say her opinion on the character is pretty valid.
User avatar #36 to #13 - vanoreo
Reply -1 123456789123345869
(09/28/2013) [-]
you have a point

but I do to
#15 - anon id: c6d31304
Reply 0 123456789123345869
(09/28/2013) [-]
"reckon"? Thought that was a southern thing.
#41 to #15 - xxxgnipsxxx
Reply 0 123456789123345869
(09/28/2013) [-]
Yeah I live in the south and I've come to the conclusion that the southern accent is just a distortion of a british accent, where as I think the North East lost whatever British accent distortion they had because of the massive influx of immigrants, where as it really seems that just now immigrants are begining to discover the south isn't this inhospitable racist wasteland. (It's not) This must be why it's so easy for British actors to mimic southern accents.
#47 to #41 - anon id: 9a139582
Reply 0 123456789123345869
(09/28/2013) [-]
The northern American accent is actually closer to the original british accent, it's the british accent that's changed.
#62 to #47 - itsbendingtime
Reply 0 123456789123345869
(09/28/2013) [-]
[citation needed]
#50 to #47 - xxxgnipsxxx
Reply 0 123456789123345869
(09/28/2013) [-]
Really? But there's no way it's the Northern accent that's closest to the original, it doesn't sound remotely British anymore. I've lived in Connecticut, New York and Tennessee, so I'm not arguing just for the sake of arguing I just find this stuff interesting.
User avatar #52 to #50 - cockassunited
Reply 0 123456789123345869
(09/28/2013) [-]
(Forgot to log in before)
I didn't mean like the hard boston accent or anything I was more referring to your average American accent if you know what I mean, and the reason the British accent sounds so different is because of the German influence in the last few hundred years, while the US has been fairly isolated for outward cultures until recently.
#58 to #52 - xxxgnipsxxx
Reply 0 123456789123345869
(09/28/2013) [-]
Ah that makes sense since we were very isolationist and for several periods, very anti-immigrant.
User avatar #19 to #15 - Crusader
Reply +2 123456789123345869
(09/28/2013) [-]
A lot of "southern" terms are actually common in Britain.
User avatar #17 to #15 - xdeathspawnx
Reply +3 123456789123345869
(09/28/2013) [-]
brits also say it a lot.
User avatar #21 to #17 - lokiwins
Reply +9 123456789123345869
(09/28/2013) [-]
I reckon Aussies do too.
#26 - jaymesburner
Reply +5 123456789123345869
(09/28/2013) [-]
Am I the only one who knows her name would have changed to Hermione Jean Weasley née Granger?
#1 - applescryatnight
Reply -10 123456789123345869
(09/27/2013) [-]
i reckon she wouldnt
she erased her existence from her parents lives.
why would she want to keep that last attachment

or maybe she wants to keep it too remember some happiness
i dont know what i reckon really.
#2 to #1 - anon id: 6924d688
Reply 0 123456789123345869
(09/27/2013) [-]
Only to keep her parents safe from Voldemort. She told Harry that if they defeated Voldemort then she would replace all of those memories. Since they defeated Voldemort then it's safe to assume that she resumed her relationship with them
#3 to #2 - applescryatnight
Reply 0 123456789123345869
(09/27/2013) [-]
ah, my mistake.
i never read the books, and i barely remember the movies.
(dont think im ignorant, i just prefer to multitask and reading takes up 100% of my focus. its the same reason why i watch dubbed anime, so i can do other stuff while i hear what happens. i guess im just restless that way)
#4 to #3 - HEYGUYS
Reply 0 123456789123345869
(09/28/2013) [-]
I may be wrong but didnt her parents get put into witness protection in australia or something....
User avatar #5 to #4 - soupkittenagain
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(09/28/2013) [-]
Vacationing
User avatar #29 to #5 - minorian
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(09/28/2013) [-]
Yeah... "Vacationing".
#6 to #1 - coolzephyr
Reply 0 123456789123345869
(09/28/2013) [-]
She can lift the memory charm she put on her parents so they would remember her again after the war.
#8 to #1 - anon id: d7f3d992
Reply 0 123456789123345869
(09/28/2013) [-]
I wish I could downvote you.
User avatar #11 to #8 - robobabe
Reply 0 123456789123345869
(09/28/2013) [-]
I did it for ya.
User avatar #10 to #8 - Zydratejunkie
Reply 0 123456789123345869
(09/28/2013) [-]
I did for you anon. <3
#32 to #10 - applescryatnight
Reply +1 123456789123345869
(09/28/2013) [-]
i love it when the fj community comes together and helps each other out like this
props to you and robobabe <3
i just wish i could thumb my comment down so i can be part of something ; - ;
User avatar #20 to #1 - Crusader
Reply +2 123456789123345869
(09/28/2013) [-]
She got rid of the memory charm, she only placed it in case she died.
User avatar #7 to #1 - YippieKiYay
Reply +5 123456789123345869
(09/28/2013) [-]
Howdy, this came up in an interview:

Maggie Keir: Was hermione able to find her parents and undo the memory damage?
J.K. Rowling: Yes, she brought them home straight away.

#56 - boltam
Reply +3 123456789123345869
(09/28/2013) [-]
#49 - anon id: fe83cdc2
Reply 0 123456789123345869
(09/28/2013) [-]
She hopefully did not. When a girl gets married she takes the mans name, that's how it works. That's just how it is. Women need to remember their ******* places.
#60 to #49 - bladebites
Reply +1 123456789123345869
(09/28/2013) [-]
You're that same anon that's been saying stupid **** on purpose, aren't you?
Well, hi, I'm a woman and even I don't care. ****** getting old, bro.
User avatar #25 - killersam
Reply +1 123456789123345869
(09/28/2013) [-]
for some reason i think i smell feminism
User avatar #63 to #25 - zombiznes
Reply +1 123456789123345869
(09/28/2013) [-]
she's just speaking from her character, hermione was all for equal rights, not necessarily feminism.
User avatar #40 - iveseensomethings
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(09/28/2013) [-]
I'm pretty sure she's a Dom behind closed-doors and after the wedding they became Hermione Jean and Ronald Granger. nee Weasley. Cuz Ron would be put in his place like that.
User avatar #12 - tittylovin
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(09/28/2013) [-]
What's wrong with Weasley?
It's the most respectable Wizarding name around.
#28 to #12 - anon id: bd83f781
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(09/28/2013) [-]
Why would you wanna be associated to muggle lovers/ blood traitors?