Eject! Eject!

It's not "what" the government is using, it's "how" and "when" they are using it.

Drones as a technology are fucking awesome. But the government is using them to kill people without due process and without a declaration of war. Also, the government is not explicitly prohibited from targeting civilians on US soil (they said that they "would not" do such a thing--and such a scenario would be extremely unlikely--but "would not" is nowhere near as definitive as "can not".)

That's the crux of the debate. It would be the same if the government was using regular manned aircraft.

If a fugitive is armed and dangerous and you can kill him without collateral damage, why not?

If someone is about to kill someone else law enforcement has the right to kill them, right?

yeah I was giving an example. Like if there's a fugitive barricaded in a building by himself, you could kill him without the danger of a police breach, no?

just a theoretical idea. I don't like the fact that the Government has the ability to eliminate who ever they want without repercussions.

there never is. media in the u.s is pretty heavily controlled. It's much more socialist than people think.

That's not what the debate is about. It's about the ability of the government to target unarmed non-combatants--even civilians--without due process, in a country where they have not declared war, even on US soil.

Pakistanis are not American Citizens, therefore, they don't get the due process. It's the thought looming that they could easily turn and gun down American Citizens without due process.

Geneva Convention, dude.

I don't have a problem with drone use in a theater of war, we should just declare war first.

Imagine if at any given time, without warning, a missile could come out of the sky and kill you or the people around you. And then sometimes the drone comes back and hits again when the first responders show up to help survivors. Any adult male in the area around a strike is considered an "enemy combatant" without even knowing who they are. Sometimes they just see somebody while flying and kill them, like a few months ago farmer that was farming at night, a custom in the area. How would you feel if you and your were subjected to instantaneous death from above that could come at any time and you can't do anything about?

They save money? Sure. Time? Hey, by that logic why send in SEALs to the Bin Laden compound when we could just nuke the city? American lives? Well, if we reign terror on all the innocent people in one region of the world, traumatizing and completely pissing off everybody in the world for years on end it must be okay because we can protect a few American soldiers by stopping them from doing what they FUCKING SIGNED UP TO DO!

actually drones are responsible for less collateral damage than almost all the un-guided and JDAM bombs dropped from conventional aircraft so far in the "war on terror" in the middle east.

I think that was the same mentality we had when we were sending Japanese-Americans to internment camps after Pearl Harbor. Y'know that "better safe than sorry" attitude that we use now to justify the slaughtering of innocent civilians.

And, btw, all military technology is going to cost more money which is what makes defense spending such a great thing to cut to help get the economy back on track. The day any elected official suggests it, however, is the day that they're never heard from again!

They' don't kill as many people as jet fighters dropping gigantic bombs do

the idea that you can kill people without being put in any danger is scary as fuck.

It's funny how when a pilot 'accidentally' kills innocent civilians, they are charged, but when drones 'accidentally' kill innocent civilians, nobody is charged.

Hey guys, why dont we go around the world and give everyone cholera. I mean its alot better than the fucking plague

I think I'd rather have cholera than the plague, but that's just me

Yeah, comparing the both isnt really fair since cholera is nothing compared to the black plague. What i meant is just that even though its better then the plague none is master race

Being experienced with having to withhold distressing information, I can understand it, situations are made a lot better by having people supporting each other, when your alone its llitterallyc rushing

Talking things like that out are always better. Some people can't just switch off that bit of humanity that knows that they're killing actual people, people who have spent years being alive and making a life for themselves, and they just cannot deal with the stress of being the one who took it all away just because someone told them too. A grunt is in danger, it's kill or be killed. He can also talk with his friends, because they were there. They know what it feels like. The pilot is in no danger, its just someone telling him to push the button. It honestly makes me think of the way Nazi's would gas the Jews, they did nothing against you personally. They aren't putting you in an equal amount of danger. It's just someone telling you to push a button, and propaganda explaining it away.

Pic Semi-related

The duality of the work-to-home shift sounds quite stress inducing tbh. I mean, you kill 20 people at work then you go home and your family expects you to be a husband as well, and that every day. Would fuck my brain.

I love Gundam Wing.
My favorite anime.

go watch Gundam Unicorn or G fighter Gundam, they're better than Gundam Wing (i'm not saying its bad tho)

I prefer Seed an 00 to those, but its al personal preference :P

When you're flying am F-16 or F-18 or really any fighter air craft you don't really see the complete physical devastation of your payload (you're sight is obstructed by the aircraft and the sheer fact you're traveling so fast). But in a drone you have thermal imaging and are travelling much slower than a jet. You see the blood and the body parts that go spraying when you make a successful hit. It's like putting a grenade in someones tac-vest and running to a safe distance and watching them explode. Pretty harsh stuff.

I'm not putting them down or anything, I just didn't expect it. I can only say from my experiences on the ground and whatnot that I never saw anything that i could get that from. But if thats what its like then yea I can imagine it being pretty fucked up.

Naw man it's cool, wasn't trying to call you out on anything. It was a shock for me as well, but the biggest issue with the drone pilots is apparently how detached they feel. Pretty much all you do is get payed to kill people while playing a real life video game. They see the death, they see the destruction, but yet they don't feel directly responsible because they aren't "there". Because of that they become more and more desensitized and pessimistic... I guess you could say they turn into drones. They lapse in and out of emotional consciousness and one day it just gets to be too much and bam, PTSD. I'm glad that this is starting to get so much coverage and research though, even within the past 10 years PTSD has been treated kinda passively, as if governments knew it was there and it was a problem, but didn't really see much point investing money into it since the soldier wouldn't be able to serve again.

Well, imagine you have to power to kill a very large amount of people at once. Has to be devastating in a different way then you're used to.

i think being a drone pilot is an elisted position though...

The military gives you a 'choice' in what you want to do, but honestly if they need you somewhere you're going there.

well officers are the only ones that are allowed to fly, and officers can't do jobs enlistees do. so if flying a drone is an elistee job, there wouldn't have been any flying involved from the start

US military came out with a medal for drone pilots that would be above the Purple Heart and Bronze Star (With Valor).
Essentially saying that a Drone pilot sitting in a chair 6000 miles away can be awarded a medal that you generally give to soldiers in the field.
The medal has since been knocked down a few notches after massive complaint from the military community.

That makes sense, and I thought the purple heart was for being wounded or killed. I fail to see how it applies to piloting a drone from a safe distance.

Exactly. That's what the general populace of the US military started asking.

I'm the one on the ground ACTUALLY getting shot at. My shift is 24/7 for however long my patrol lasts, anywhere from days to weeks.
I get to see my buddies get killed first hand while I listen to grown men scream for his life because he sees all his blood and guts spilling out of him.

The fucking pogs sitting at the drone controls don't know shit.
And dont deserve a medal.

Maybe you should reconsider your career choices if you feel that way about your MOS. The UAV pilots/operators deserve a medal just as much as the ones getting shot at. But not the same medals. They don't deserve a medal of honor but they definitely deserve recognition for that particular AFSC.

"A" medal sure. But one that rates higher than the fucking Bronze star?!
Fuck no.
I'm not saying it isn't an hard job but if you seriously think it deserves a distinguished warfare medal you're out of your damn mind.

that medal is a participation award so the drone pilots don't feel left out. it's kindergarten all over again.