logic

It's Castiel...

Dammit you made me read it in his voice even before I noticed your picture and name. You wonderful bastard.

Can I upload thumbs directly to your profile?

That was seriously beautiful

you spelled hwhat wrong

What a kind god...oh wait...

its kinda funny cause of god's greatest gift to mankind...

you know...

free will...

Actually we stole it. The trees of knowledge and immortality were supposedly in the garden of Eden, but we broke the rules and got them before we were ready.

and god can't take that away?

Our punishment is living with too much work to use advanced intellect. We've progressed far enough in the last 50,000 years that some of us don't need to work as hard, and are instead forced to suffer both idiocy and maddening thought brought on by our own mental prowess. The ultimate punishment is the one that forces you to be great.

i see what you mean, but wouldnt you agree that without free will, life would be meaningless? Why live if everything you do is dictated by something so immensely powerful that to even to attempt to comprehend it would shatter your psyche?

Have you ever seen a dog chase a bird or laser pointer? I can guarantee you that dog believes itself to be the happiest fucking thing on earth. It lives for the hunt, and though it's will is dampened by it's urge for survival, good old euphoria kicks in and makes it enjoy the struggle. We experience the same thing in spurts of violence or sport, whether we really want to do it or not.
Besides, humans are the only creature on earth that have dictators. All other creatures act on their own accord or for the good of their packs. Only ants, bees and termites, who have brains so simple they may as well be robots, have any sort of dictation in their lives. This is the reason for "hippie" arguments about being one with nature. They don't speak of being tree fuckers, they're talking about the penultimate freedom that comes with the need to survive as an animal without human paraphernalia buzzing around in their heads.

If we have free will, why does the bible say everything is predestined?

because the bible was written by mankind.

I don't want to be rude here but... I thought it was Satan, or the devil, who gave us free will? More-or-less.

Satan would have never been able to convince Eve to take the apple if god had not given her free will to even consider it.

In the story, god apparently creates people with free will, but not the knowledge of good and evil. Then, he more or less abandons and punishes Adam and Eve for not listening to him after he gave them free will but not the knowledge of right or wrong. And I'll go a step further. Since god knows everything, he predetermines all actions. So even before Adam and Eve or Satan had committed any of the "atrocities" that they did commit, god knew they were going to do, allows them to do it anyway, and then punishes them for doing what he knew they were going to do.

Already in the first chapter we have a bunch of stuff that doesn't make sense.

so god made eve... not a robot.... and we should be grateful?

So flooding the Earth is how he shows his love? I actually love that story. That's probably how i'd have dealt with a fucked up humanity. Just restart everything. Except that i'd send some waves of plague instead, because killing and destroying all ecosystems possible is just a bit overkill

sounds like a pretty shitty deal to me, you live! now thank me! Death or freedom, "why was there the black plaque? it the glorious god for teaching us a lesson about something we never did"

Plague*. Just saying. Because, you know, Plaque is the bacteria that inhabits your teeth...

thanks

You're very welcome.

Thank you.

We disobeyed him? Oh, right, so because of a petty offence (purportedly) committed aeons ago by two people, it's all fine and dandy to make absolutely everything else suffer thereafter? And I'm the dick for saying that this is unreasonable?

If you're trying to justify why people say grace, pay to God etc., then that's fine by all accounts. However, you simply cannot call anyone a dick for questioning the validity and/or fairness of this decision!

So let's see the logic you apply:
> God creates humans with free will
> God gives them temptation without a knowledge of sin (why the fuck put the tree there if they weren't allowed it? No fuck - it was a set up.)
> They eat from the tree after a superpowerful anti-God tricks them into it.
> God punishes all humans forever because we are all unworthy heathen bastards who disobeyed his mighty command.

No. I didn't disobey God. Adam and Eve can't even be blamed for what they did. Look at what God did to Job. I'm not one to attack religion, I usually defend it (because there's nothing wrong with faith), but I'll be the first to admit God is no saint - after all he has free will (and no punishments for his actions) too. While he may be grown up enough to not murder us all for shits and giggles, he still can do whatever he wants regardless of the "good" or "bad" aspect of it.

But eternal suffering doesn't exist. Hell is not mentioned anywhere in the Bible or Torah at all in any way. It's all mistranslation or bullshit inserted by the Catholic church a long time ago to scare people into joining or simply to twist the words to help them. God forgives everyone ultimately and they go to heaven. The suffering God speaks of in the Bible is Earthly. He says be good on Earth, and your life on Earth will be good (that's the theory - in practice it's not as simple).

And you may give thanks for inhabiting the Earth, but I think most people just do it because their parents said to or they really are directly thanking God for the food. They thank God for healing literally most of the time. People really are that sheepish and/or stupid.

Also..if i may add. I don't think churches pay taxes..Like...all the churches in the USA could feed a 3rd world country.

...That's why the pope sits on a solid gold throne and the biggest building in nearly every small town is a church.
Just because it is a non-prophet organization doesn't mean the people involved don't make a handsome living.

>non-prophet

and a hundred of them fits perfectly in OP's mouth.

Fits in your ass too
faggot

Well, they didn't wear clothe before the tree, it could be seen that the tree gave humans the ability to develop beyond basic animal knowledge, such as chimpanzee, who can use basic tools and etc. while we have space shuttles and are constantly developing new tools, while chimpanzees do not

Well we should've had that capability before, because God made us in his image. We are also the only species with a soul and free will.

No, every living thing has a soul and free will. The other animals of the world just rely more on instinct than humans do. If animals didn't have free will then they'd all act exactly the same but they don't and they even develop strategies and utilize tools much as man has in the past, therefore they don't not have free will.

Last I checked, the ability to think is not a visible trait.

In the bible it didn't give them knowledge, more like self-awareness

tree of knowledge of good and evil is the actual name of it.

So what you're saying is that they didn't gain knowledge of the world, that they gained knowledge of the existence of good and evil?

And thereby gaining knowledge of the world through that means as well yes.

Understood, thanks.

You should feel proud, that conversation was the most civil thing i've seen today.

That just raises further questions.

God doesn't answer Jesus he refuses to pay child support.

Then why aren't we living in the Garden of Fucking Eden?

Because they were first thrown out, and then Jesus came along, being all hippy and love

see, old testament god and new testament god dont get along

No, they do.

Theology student reporting in here -

Neither of the two Jewish sources responsible for the first 11 or so chapters of Genesis (the Yahwist source and the Priestly source) had a perception of God as possessing the 'divine attributes', such as omnipotence. These come as part of a much later Christian tradition. The early Jewish God was seen as more than capable of making mistakes (look how God makes Eve through trial and error in chapter 2)

...really?

Am I being dense here, even if this is a well chewed problem it is still something to be a junior philosopher over when you are young or first running into it right?

I don't mean to be rude, but can you reword that?

Oh, sorry. I was surprised that the philosphoraptor would be inappropriate. Even if the question has an obvious answer (or two) it is still something people ponder over.

I think my jimmies are rustled.

I must say that putting the dahm tree in the middle of the garden was a bit of dick move. Forbidden fruits are tempting. He should have known it would happen. And the punishment they receive for it are a bit harsh

Alright true story for a moment, and even though it's confusing at first it has something to do wtth a bible.

So me an a bunch of my friends came together at one point and played Dungeons and Dragons, I myself was a Warlock, not remembering the race but it was a kind of demon, and in the game I was on the run from a religious order who only says all other kind of magic but theirs is a sin and must be destroyed. Long story short we meet a little patrol of guards and quickly kills them, I melted a face X), and I found a bible on one of them, not having any use for it I threw it over my shoulder and it flew over at one of my friends. It struck him and I shit you not, I rolled the dice and it turned out the bible dealt 4-5 damage to his total life.

hfw as he threw the bible back but dealt 2 damage.

(Clap clap)