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#18 - darkssen (05/02/2012) [-]
Checkmate
User avatar #226 to #18 - mylazy (05/02/2012) [-]
You know, the logic in this argument starts off on whether science can prove or disprove religion. Not a single bit of science was really mentioned (aside from post 113) to prove or disprove it. That is why people think us Christians are stupid. MOST of us never bother to learn anything in science before accepting the Bible. The only thing I have ever learned that continues to make me wonder is the existence of carbon dating. That is the only thing. Most of the rest actually supports it, if you aren't assuming it is wrong from the beginning.
#169 to #18 - anonymous (05/02/2012) [-]
You chose to be an atheist and how can you believe that God doesn't exist but say that he made you an atheist. Checkmate? really man are you 12 or something?
#90 to #18 - homelessgus (05/02/2012) [-]
ill just leave this here
#92 to #90 - thomasdb (05/02/2012) [-]
Well he was kind of asking for a "debate"...
User avatar #21 to #18 - Vandeekree (05/02/2012) [-]
He gave you the choice to be atheist.
User avatar #48 to #21 - wajaba (05/02/2012) [-]
actually, no, satan gave us free will and critical thinking
#104 to #48 - anonymous (05/02/2012) [-]
Only an atheist could say something so completely ignorant and wrong.

First of all, God made Eve. God made Eve, which means that God gave Eve free agency. Satan has not the power nor the ability to create, only to destroy.

If God intended for Eve to not have free agency, God would not have given Eve the ability to be tempted by Satan to eat of the forbidden fruit. God gave man agency, not Satan.

If God can say "let there be light" and there is light, surely he can also say "you will not eat that apple" and you will not eat that apple. Fairly simple, no?

Second of all, where in temptation lies critical thinking? If I offer you a delicious, sweet, juicy double chocolate brownie(hell, let's even make it "special" just for funsies) am I inviting you to actively consider the brownie, or am I offering you something that isn't good for your health? Satan didn't give man critical thinking, he gave man temptations. Temptations and critical thoughts aren't the same thing.

Look, I get it. You're an atheist. Why bother investigating things you think are ******** ? Why bother considering the intricacies of theology when it's all wrong anyway? You don't care about this stuff and you're entirely ignorant of it. So let me give you some advise:

Don't talk about things you don't know anything about. It's hard to recognize your own ignorance, I know, but give it a shot. You might actually make people think you're smarter than you clearly are.
User avatar #107 to #104 - warrenzthehero (05/02/2012) [-]
Funny thing is, no where in the Bible does it say that snake was Satan.
User avatar #54 to #48 - Vandeekree (05/02/2012) [-]
And who made Satan?
User avatar #55 to #54 - wajaba (05/02/2012) [-]
who made god?
User avatar #73 to #55 - jokeface (05/02/2012) [-]
no one, thats the point.

see this is why religious debates are ******* retarded. there's no way to find out which party is right until one of them dies, and even then its not like they can report back with their findings.

you ppl piss me off. not the atheists, not the Christians, but the ppl who think your petty little arguments make a difference. i hate all of you idiots.
User avatar #75 to #73 - wajaba (05/02/2012) [-]
thats why im asking questions because id like to consider the other persons point of view instead of just mindlessly bashing the other persons point of view...
User avatar #81 to #75 - jokeface (05/02/2012) [-]
buddy, im Christian, and i can tell you that nothing he says is going to hinder your faith, and nothing you say is going to make him question science. there is a place for religious debates, but it is not here where everyone gets lulz from pissing each other off
User avatar #63 to #55 - Vandeekree (05/02/2012) [-]
God has always been. Which is misleading because he is outside of time. So it's more like "he is there." No beginning and no end.
User avatar #64 to #63 - wajaba (05/02/2012) [-]
yet... mass pools of energy smashing into each other to create everything is insane?
User avatar #78 to #64 - Vandeekree (05/02/2012) [-]
What created the energy? Where did it come from?
#122 to #78 - thomasdb (05/02/2012) [-]
Why can't energy have always existed yet god can? :/
User avatar #130 to #122 - Vandeekree (05/02/2012) [-]
Because energy moves and changes, God is unchanging, that is the difference between being inside of time and outside of it.
User avatar #184 to #130 - RandomAnonGuy (05/02/2012) [-]
So you're saying that god didn't change at all from old testament to new and he's still the homicidal infanticidal racist bloodthirsty sociopath he was before?
#136 to #130 - thomasdb (05/02/2012) [-]
Science is crying under it's sheets because of what you just said...
User avatar #141 to #136 - Vandeekree (05/02/2012) [-]
If we are down to insults then should i just consider the argument over?
#146 to #141 - thomasdb (05/02/2012) [-]
For now, sure. I'm leaving anyways. It's just you claimed god was outside of time and I had to say it...
User avatar #149 to #146 - Vandeekree (05/02/2012) [-]
Obviously he is, if he's not in complete control of everything then why call him God?
he created time, you're not thinking big enough
#152 to #149 - thomasdb (05/02/2012) [-]
I can call the flying spaghetti monster god, that doesn't mean he's going to touch you with his noodley appendage. No, he doesn't give praise to lessers.
User avatar #154 to #152 - Vandeekree (05/02/2012) [-]
yeah, i've taken him into consideration, he makes little sense.
#126 to #122 - kusherboy (05/02/2012) [-]
**kusherboy rolls 582**
User avatar #22 to #21 - darkssen (05/02/2012) [-]
I wasn't actually planning to start a religious debate.. I prefer to have logic and rationality in my debates.


User avatar #23 to #22 - Vandeekree (05/02/2012) [-]
Alright, here's some logic.
Lets say I agree with you right now. No God, bible is fiction, also it was silly to think that. What would my reward be?
User avatar #227 to #23 - icedmantwo (05/02/2012) [-]
besides studies have shown that atheists are more likely to help for the sake of helping
http://www.livescience.com/20005-atheists-motivated-compassion.html
0
#201 to #23 - greeklemoncake **User deleted account** has deleted their comment [-]
User avatar #57 to #23 - icedmantwo (05/02/2012) [-]
i am incapable of believing something i find false
like if somebody told you that dogs could speak english but would only do it when no human is around or can see or hear them in any way, and they could magically tell when this was happening so you would never catch them
besides i would rather do something good for the sake of doing it than do it for a reward
User avatar #67 to #57 - Vandeekree (05/02/2012) [-]
Of course, the only way to believe something is with proof. I'm not saying blind faith is the way but then there is no such thing as blind faith. everyone who believes does so because they have found proof. That proof might not work for you or me but it is theirs.
And no one does anything without a reason. There is a reward to everything you do be it the good feeling you get from helping someone or the money you get from being a hit man.
User avatar #114 to #67 - warrenzthehero (05/02/2012) [-]
Actually there is such a thing as blind faith. See, when someone is raised since birth to believe a certain thing, taught to them that this thing is true, they will believe it, at the very least unilateral they reach an age of more critical thinking (say junior high level, give or take). Up to that point, they believe this thing without question because It's always been taught ti them.
User avatar #121 to #114 - Vandeekree (05/02/2012) [-]
Ok, i have to admit, i wasn't including children, but that's less faith in God and more faith in their parents.
User avatar #125 to #121 - warrenzthehero (05/02/2012) [-]
True, nut sometimes people won't let this go and will continue to staunchly believe despite outside views or facts, a point I thought at the time to be implied, but in hindsight realize it wasn't.
User avatar #102 to #67 - icedmantwo (05/02/2012) [-]
too a degree yes people get satisfaction from doing a good deed and for some thats all they need, because its human and not because a 2000 year old book told them too. to put it simply there doesnt have to be a reward greater than the psychological reward one gives them self when they do good
and i see no proof that there is a god which leads me to think that if there is a god, than that god simply made things at the start of the universe x billion years ago, then simply stood back to watch
that being said you are entitled to your beliefs, though in a situation like this i will challenge you on them, because challenge brings change and change is good
User avatar #24 to #23 - darkssen (05/02/2012) [-]
*sigh*... alright I'll bite.

You would get the reward of not being dependent on an imaginary friend. There is no reward. If you believe in a god simply to have a reward, you're ignoring any logical explanation or argument against any religion.
#77 to #24 - alligatormoon (05/02/2012) [-]
Well played sir, well played
User avatar #26 to #24 - Vandeekree (05/02/2012) [-]
So then nothing...no reward...no reason to ever believe what you believe?
So(not meant as an insult i promise) your beliefs are pointless.
So why believe them?
Surly you're not telling me you know for sure there is no God so then why would you keep your beliefs where they are for the only reward of feeling independent from an imaginary friend?
Atheists always talk about how they only follow logic but I really never see any of it(yes, i have taken into account this could be due to my own lack of intelligence but believe me when i say I trying my best)
But do you think that i follow the bible only because it makes me feel warm inside and it's nice to have the reassurance?
I know about as much as you do. By that I mean i can't prove God's existence to you nor am I sure that he is real. But I believe he is because of the logic in the bible. The moral logic that simply makes sense.
i know it's a bit blunt to just say "show me some of this logic of which you speak" but tell me why you believe what you believe please. Why is you view more logical than mine?
User avatar #31 to #26 - darkssen (05/02/2012) [-]
Why do you need a reward to believe in something? And to be fair, Atheism is the lack of belief.
And I could say the same about your's. Your beliefs are as pointless as anyone else's.
My beliefs are simple, I've thought about religion as a whole and I have concluded that to believe in such things is a silly and unrealistic idea. And I will not lower myself to that. That however doesn't mean I think less of any of my religious friends, unless of course they give me reason to.

The logic they're speaking of, and this is just speculation.. but chances are that logic is just given a chance, they will rethink a situation and deem nothing impossible. While someone of a religious nature will put their faith in something else and pray to it to make things better.

I don't know why you follow the bible.. I just met you. If you've read the entire bible though, you'd probably think less about religion. It's actually a really violent and useless book, and if you believe that god is real simply because the bible says so.. by that logic, spiderman is real as well.
The moral logic.. the morals in the bible.. this is my favorite one, first Timothy 2:12. That's ******* retarded, and it's not the only instance of such idiocy
I don't know why my view is more logical, but the simple fact is, I just don't give a **** . What happens, happens. If I can have a part in shaping whatever happens. Then great, I'd rather have that then pray to a god and hope things get better.
#142 to #31 - nscott (05/02/2012) [-]
What does a deacon have to do with this?
User avatar #38 to #31 - Vandeekree (05/02/2012) [-]
Of course you need a reward. Everything you do you do for a reason. That reason is most often a reward or to avoid punishment which is kind of a reward too.
As for that comparison i would say the opposite. It is those who see something and decide that they know enough to understand it that they can say what is and isn't possible while those of a religious nature will take action based on their beliefs. I know of no one who sits and prays as their main way of getting things done. The bible no where tells you to rely on God, it tells you to work for him.
I have read the entire length of it and if all you see are the violent parts and not why God would show you those parts then you're right, it is useless to you. And taken by itself that verse does seem a bit off doesn't it? But it's not by itself either. It's called context.
But then "I just don't give a **** ." i admit i have nothing to say against that. I have no idea how to spark a " **** " in you. (i can't stop laughing after writing that)
But if all you have done is "look at religion as a whole" then I don't think you're trying very hard, but I guess you just told me that with the "not giving a **** " comment.
#46 to #38 - thomasdb (05/02/2012) [-]
Those who need a reward are the weak minded. Truly good people do good things because they can, not for a reward, not for eternal life in heaven, not to avoid hell. They do good things because they are good people.
User avatar #53 to #46 - Vandeekree (05/02/2012) [-]
No such thing. You only do things because you have a reason. To do something good out of the blue is impossible, you had to have something behind it. A reason.
God is mine. What is yours? So you feel good about yourself? So others see you as a good person?
#61 to #53 - thomasdb (05/02/2012) [-]
There are no such thing as good people? Well pardon me for having a little faith in humanity.

My reason behind doing things is to do that which has the greatest benefit to everyone. If put into a situation you should choose that which benefits the community as a whole over yourself every time. Not everyone is as close-minded and egotistic as yourself, we don't all need instant gratification in a boogeyman just so we can make it through the day without murdering people.

If you hold the door for someone because you want to get to heaven is ridiculously self centered and deserves no respect. If you do the same because it aids someone you are a good person.
User avatar #74 to #61 - Vandeekree (05/02/2012) [-]
I think you misunderstand me.
There are good and bad actions. And then there is the reason that you did each. Only that reason matters. Doing something good because it gets you into heaven won't get you into heaven. You have to do it because you love God and love those around you. otherwise it is pointless. Doing something good for the wrong reason if you will.
#80 to #74 - thomasdb (05/02/2012) [-]
I'm curious, what are the specifications for getting into heaven?
User avatar #91 to #80 - Vandeekree (05/02/2012) [-]
To love God and believe in him which of course means to do your best to follow all his rules. if you do that then you will firstly seek out the truth of what he did and wants and then try to follow it. Both of those are life long pursuits.
#93 to #91 - thomasdb (05/02/2012) [-]
And you know this how?
User avatar #101 to #93 - Vandeekree (05/02/2012) [-]
Well it starts with common sense. If there is a God then if he didn't leave us some sort of instructions there's nothing i can do but sit here. But I think he did leave instructions. Several people claim to have them And so you read and study and look at them and pick the one that is best. Now you don't pick and them stay with it. You pick, live that way until your mind is changed or if you find nothing to change your mind up until death then surly you're right. my current understanding is that he wrote the bible and that is where i get it from.
#111 to #101 - thomasdb (05/02/2012) [-]
Common sense would dictate that there is scientific reasoning behind every action.

Anyways, I'm curious as to why you would rather believe in a countless times re-written book that contains as many miss-translations as it does logical fallacies without any proof of it being god's work instead of the other countless times re-written book that contains as many miss-translations as it does logical fallacies without any proof of it being god's work. They're practically the same things, it's just yours is "obviously right" in your eyes while the other is "obviously right" in another's eyes. There is no copy of the "original bible" because no such thing exists. It is understood that it was to be a collection of the interpretations of "god's will".

Try some of the re-written books which were re-written because new evidence was found and not suited to whatever king was in power at the time.
User avatar #123 to #111 - Vandeekree (05/02/2012) [-]
i will admit that there are mistranslations so you do have to be careful in order to get the original actual message. But that's where God comes in, if he's going to give us truths like this then surly he will keep it from getting lost in the movement of time. But it doesn't matter what others believe. It matters what I believe, and I do my best to look at all of them unbiasedly. Ready to convert to any one that simply makes more sense. But the bible is perfect as far as i have seen and if that changes i might reconsider. one thing i could never do is change to an atheist simply because there is no gain or point to being an atheist, it's illogical
#150 to #123 - nscott (05/02/2012) [-]
We have actually limited the miss-translations by translating it from the original Language to the new language so there is lees problems and a lot of the time it's not a miss-translation but a lack of a word in our language that's like their word.
User avatar #151 to #150 - Vandeekree (05/02/2012) [-]
Yes, i understand, that's exactly how i mean, it must almost be paraphrased
#164 to #151 - nscott (05/02/2012) [-]
People don't change easy brother, it's so hard for anyone to see the light and where do they get this magic man in the sky from anyway because if their getting it from where moses went ontop of the mountain to met God I can see where they get it from but it said he was at the top of the mountain not in the sky and I guess that I am tired of talking with people who have no clue about what we are.
#137 to #123 - thomasdb (05/02/2012) [-]
Atheism is illogical because we don't believe what you do. That right there shows that you are clearly having a biased opinion.
User avatar #144 to #137 - Vandeekree (05/02/2012) [-]
No no, atheism is illogical because it literally states that there is no reward for believing it. I would try to convert to something if i were atheist just so i have a chance at being right because "i think nothing happens" is less than fulfilling. It holds no value and it is illogical to hold yourself to a belief for no reason.
+3
#30 to #26 - kumquatchaos **User deleted account** has deleted their comment [-]
#166 to #30 - nscott (05/02/2012) [-]
You believe in a set of coincidences created everything but you can't create or destroy matter or energy so how does the big bang work? And what made it compact like that in the first place since there wasn't anything yet? It just doesn't make any since to me.
#51 to #30 - stlbecker (05/02/2012) [-]
Alas my brothers, I hath parted the great ********* of our time!
User avatar #85 to #51 - Vandeekree (05/02/2012) [-]
You parted it huh? Well i created it...rather proud of myself.
User avatar #224 to #85 - darkssen (05/02/2012) [-]
Hey hey, I created it. And damn am I proud of it.
#88 to #85 - stlbecker (05/02/2012) [-]
yaaa Im a christian to but i would rather not get involved in an FJ Bible... I will just believe what i believe and live life   
   
   
<---------------- this is you
yaaa Im a christian to but i would rather not get involved in an FJ Bible... I will just believe what i believe and live life


<---------------- this is you
User avatar #98 to #88 - Vandeekree (05/02/2012) [-]
Yes, so many rustled jimmies. But I feel like I'm learning a lot. So many interesting views. It's rather fun. Though it has gotten to where I can't reply to them all. And so many thumbs down....*shudders*
User avatar #39 to #30 - Vandeekree (05/02/2012) [-]
But I want to know, where do your morals come from? Why do you follow them? Are you simply making them up?
Also Judaism is actually the same thing as Christianity but I have looked carefully at the other religions(though my studies are admittedly not over) and Christianity still is the only one that makes perfect sense. I just don't see how you can look at them seriously and come up with "I'll just go with...none of the above." it's like not even trying and that admittedly scares me.
User avatar #59 to #39 - kerfufflemachtwo (05/02/2012) [-]
Morals come from the human mind. That's it. It's part of having an evolved brain. We think more.

Also, Judaism and Christianity may have similar origins, but they are not the same. The biggest difference is that Christianity acknowledges that Jesus was the son of God, while Judaism does not. Judaism does acknowledge his existence, and that he was a good man, but not that he was the son of God. There are other differences, but that's the biggest one.
User avatar #69 to #59 - Vandeekree (05/02/2012) [-]
Then they are ambiguous and not real. Simply made up. That is why God is needed for there to be actual right and wrong.
User avatar #72 to #69 - kerfufflemachtwo (05/02/2012) [-]
Right and wrong are human concepts. We made them. We decided what they are, and what falls under each category. And they change over time.

You're saying somebody has to tell us what they are, even though we made them in the first place.
User avatar #87 to #72 - Vandeekree (05/02/2012) [-]
No, I'm saying God made them and made this world together. And made us with it. I see why you might think that but if it is true then they are made up and if they are made up they aren't real, don't matter, and who cares? see why i have a problem with that? if i'm going to live my life by a code then i need to be sure it is right
User avatar #134 to #87 - kerfufflemachtwo (05/02/2012) [-]
Of course they're real. We made them real. We made a bunch of concepts real. Like a week. Or a meter. Or the internet.

Just because it was made up doesn't mean it isn't real. And, obviously, somebody cared about it. Because they made it up and kept it going.

Your last comment is one of the biggest arguments I have against religion. "If I'm going to live my life by a code, then I need to be sure it is right."

I strongly feel religions were created to make us feel better as a whole. We're smart enough to understand so much about our world, yet there's still so much we don't know. And we felt the need for some guiding force to reassure us what is right and wrong. So, religion was created. The early ones were more focused on explaining things of the physical world that we didn't understand. Lightning and death and volcanoes and stuff. Then, as we understood more, we redirected its focus as something to guide us. Reinforcement for the moral code we created in the first place.
User avatar #140 to #134 - Vandeekree (05/02/2012) [-]
I don't think you are understanding me and i simply need sleep...
But yes, something that is made up is not real, it is limited to being just a concept. And of course you can't be right for sure, that is where the faith comes in that there is a God and he has given you the answer, putting it in a place you can reach.
User avatar #145 to #140 - kerfufflemachtwo (05/02/2012) [-]
So a week, a decade, a meter, a liter, and a gram are all not real? We made them up. We decided what they should be.

And again, you reinforce my point. We want a guiding force. We want an explanation for things we don't know. That God (or your deity of choice) will guide us down whatever road is the "right" one.

Humans created religion for this purpose. And I simply acknowledge this fact.
User avatar #148 to #145 - Vandeekree (05/02/2012) [-]
And if it just so happens that you are wrong? That God did create us and guides us? You seem to know an awfully lot more than i do making such claims. i mean i know my perception is limited and all but...
User avatar #155 to #148 - kerfufflemachtwo (05/02/2012) [-]
If I am wrong, then I'm wrong. I'll know when I'm dead. Or, maybe I won't.

And it may not be that I know more than you. It may just be that I've thought about it more. Maybe.
User avatar #157 to #155 - Vandeekree (05/02/2012) [-]
A logical assumption. But i warn you, waiting till death is a bit late. I'd start now. procrastination rarely pays off.
User avatar #159 to #157 - kerfufflemachtwo (05/02/2012) [-]
I'll pass. Not interested. I have better things to do with my time and energy.
User avatar #160 to #159 - Vandeekree (05/02/2012) [-]
Better things than pursuing your purpose in life?
User avatar #162 to #160 - kerfufflemachtwo (05/02/2012) [-]
Yeah. Doing what I decide to do.
+2
#49 to #39 - kumquatchaos **User deleted account** has deleted their comment [-]
User avatar #56 to #49 - Vandeekree (05/02/2012) [-]
But why are you doing those good things? Just so you feel good about it? Is that enough to make you go out and attempt to do good or do you simply stay at home and do what good presents itself in your path?
#186 to #56 - anonymous (05/02/2012) [-]
The thing is, from a scientific standpoint, humans have been using two tactics for years. These are:

1) Help others, then they have to help you or feel guilt (guilt = from years of evolution and brain chemistry. No one really wants to go into the 10000 page essay on that. Trust me.)

Tactic 2: Let everyone else **** themselves, and protect yourself above all else.

These are taught through tradition. It formed from basic adaption (different from evolution), where people learned that if you help someone else, you could make them promise to help you. You could also just screw them all and help yourself.
It depends mostly on how you're raised when it comes to which one you end up doing. This doesn't mean if your parents are religious or not, it just means "did your ancestors develop tactic A or tactic B?"

Since humans have taught these values for years, since before most religions even formed, it has stuck with us. Two tactics, and a few gray areas between.

And it works. So we keep them. Unless we're damaged in the head (Most cases of a different tactic stem from mental illness) or raised in one of the rare other tactics. (KILL ALL HUMANS: tactic C)

User avatar #29 to #26 - heraske (05/02/2012) [-]
What about Lucipher's reward? Ya dumb bitch, he coulda promised you something but those money-needy jewish ********* probably forgot about him.


Ah yes... He is the king of all evil. The one who had killed 10 in the story of fiction, the giver of freedom. As to compared to God, the ultimate dumb **** who has killed approximately 10,000,000 in the bible, the one that blocked you from freedom, the ruler of fiction.



But moral of story.


Why not Zoidberg?
User avatar #28 to #26 - mylazy (05/02/2012) [-]
You know, you can actually use science to prove what happens in the bible true. Most people just don't know that, and therefore assume it isn't possible. I have seen several videos on the subject. Not everyone can believe on blind faith.
User avatar #35 to #28 - darkssen (05/02/2012) [-]
Videos... have you seen it personally? Or are you just assuming on blind faith that everything in those "videos" actually happened.. Cause I've seen some videos of DBZ, and I don't remember earth getting blown up.
User avatar #32 to #28 - Vandeekree (05/02/2012) [-]
Of course. if it is true then it will have some proof. Unfortunately we aren't always able to use science in it's current state to prove or disprove something.
Science is not the opposite of religion. And i would argue that there is no such thing as blind faith. But just because something convinces me doesn't mean it will convince you either.
User avatar #44 to #32 - noblexfenrir (05/02/2012) [-]
Then you obviously don't understand how science works. The problem with religion is its entire following only do so because of visions, random occurrences, and very very skewed science. If you had something to absolutely prove god, then faith would not be required what so ever, and the ability to deny wouldn't be because of lack of evidence and instead based on refusal to accept.

Also did you honestly make the argument "where do your morals come from?" you do realize that you don't need a god to have a set of morals based on the best fit way to run a society. Thou shalt not skill isn't just an idea in the bible, I'm pretty sure we sophisticated human like beings can realize that if everyones killing each other than progress will be hindered. What you are talking about aren't morals, they are social ethics, a set of rules based on what is best for the community as a whole and not just the individual. You would probably be surprised that morals vary greatly, even with religious peoples, some approve of theft in certain situations, some say its never right, some think homosexuality should be banned, others are fine with it. If god gave such a great set of morals for each human to follow then why do we vary so greatly in the field of gray when the word of god should easily make it black and white.

"""""But do you think that i follow the bible only because it makes me feel warm inside and it's nice to have the reassurance""""
Yes. Otherwise you would have the ability to look past the ridiculousness of the story and accept there is no proof for a god. You do not need a reward for life, life is your reward, make the most of it. Atheist's do not say there is no god absolutely. We say there is no proof of god, you have none, and until you show me some I will refute his existence.

It all comes down to knowledge and research, and blind research only to support the bible as a final end leads to people such as Kent Hovind who have no idea what they are talking about.
User avatar #52 to #44 - Vandeekree (05/02/2012) [-]
What I mean when i ask "where do morals come from" is that if they don't come from something higher then what is the point? Are they even real or just made up and if they are made up then why should i not simply make up my own?
And if life is the reward then i find that immensely sad. There is so much unfairness in the world and if this is all there is to it and not merely a test then I fail to see the point.
Life must have a purpose or else it's purposeless...seems redundant but i don't feel like a lot of atheists get that.
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#70 to #52 - noblexfenrir has deleted their comment [-]
User avatar #65 to #52 - noblexfenrir (05/02/2012) [-]
"""" is that if they don't come from something higher then what is the point? Are they even real or just made up and if they are made up then why should i not simply make up my own?""""

THATS IT! You can make up your own, you can literally do anything you want. That is why some people choose to murders, to kill themselves, to steal, to love, to help others, etc etc. Because you are the decider of your own morals. However, remember what I said, society has its own set of ethics based on what is proven to be negative for a community to thrive. If people are going around killing each other, then that is kind of a negative impact would you not agree? Thus, most societies don't allow murder. Alot of what these ethics are based off of is two questions "Is it positive for the community as a whole?" and "Would I like it if someone did it to me?" That is why things we view as positive are so deeply connected to our morals, while things viewed as negative for a community usually fall into the opposite spectrum. It doesn't have to be divinely inspired.

""""Life must have a purpose or else it's purposeless""""
It does have a purpose, the purpose to life (all life) is to die. The purpose of YOUR life, and every individual life is what that person/thing wants it to be.

Am I saying there isn't an afterlife? Absolutely not, coming to such a conclusion is not only horribly terrifying, but I have no basis to say it does not exist at all, ever, there is no possible way. Am I saying there is no god? No, but the problem is these things are not able to be proven through logic, science, and overall observation. We refute the idea that theist say "Yes god exists, we know absolutely, he can be proven and because of that evolution, and science is wrong"

We go against religion because you make claims to god being provable. When he obviously isn't and anyone who thinks he is, is a fool. It's also a problem when that religion has a tremendous hold on governments and sways the direction


User avatar #82 to #65 - Vandeekree (05/02/2012) [-]
Firstly, i have never claimed God is provable. i only said that there is proof that has made me believe. Otherwise i wouldn't. I'm not just picking Christianity and saying "yup" i have actual reasons for my beliefs, that is the proof I mean.
And i don't care about society's laws. i mean is there a real single right and wrong? if not then there is simply no point to life. And things that have no purpose don't exist.
User avatar #94 to #82 - noblexfenrir (05/02/2012) [-]
""""Firstly, i have never claimed God is provable. i only said that there is proof that has made me believe.""""
Why believe in something that can only be proven to you? If the evidence is so compelling then it should be obvious everyone should believe. Obviously that's not true. and Alright then, why is christianity true to you? Why not islam, taoism, norse, greek, buddhism, etc.?


"""i mean is there a real single right and wrong?"""
Why does there have to be?

"""" if not then there is simply no point to life. """"
Why? why does a right and wrong clearly defined give reason to life? I could have this black and white knowledge of good and bad and still choose to delve into the bad choices. It wouldn't change anything, the fact is, morality isn't black and white because choices aren't black and white. To think they would have to be is beyond idiotic because you are qualifying one act as one entity when it has the ability to split into an infinite number of different situations each requiring a tuning of the moral compass.

""""And things that have no purpose don't exist.""""
I just explained the purpose of life is to die. It's not morbid or meaning it has no point, this is the end of life meaning it's final purpose has been reached. The purpose something has during life is not important really. Everything has a purpose and everything doesn't have a purpose, its just at what way you're looking at it.
User avatar #108 to #94 - Vandeekree (05/02/2012) [-]
it's getting late and I'm beginning to run out of steam but you are one of the most intellectual of the people i'm talking with so let me try to explain it.
He is not provable only to me, he is proven to many others who believe, but that doesn't matter. What i believe is all that matters to me. i try to prove it to others but i'm far from good at it. i will believe what my eyes see and nothing else.
And i believe in Christianity because, from what i have studied(no, not even going to say i'm an expert or close to done in my studying of other religions) Christianity is the best, it makes perfect sense where i find flaws in others. i will admit that other religions have certain things that i like about them, including atheism but from my current understanding, Christianity is right.
And yes, there must be right or wrong otherwise it's not right and wrong, i thought that was obvious.
because without God we are stupid animals drudging around on the earth for no point, we came from no where and we are going no where, there is no point to us being here, nothing higher, and that is a depressing thought, i like to think i have a purpose
and no, "to die" is what life does but is not it's final purpose. and it doesn't matter how you look at it, if there is no purpose there is no reason for being, if there is no reason for being there is no existence and if there is no existence then i don't know if we exist, i think i exist, so then i must have a purpose, what gave me that purpose? God

User avatar #232 to #108 - noblexfenrir (05/03/2012) [-]
sorry I had fallen asleep before you had replied.

""""He is not provable only to me, he is proven to many others who believe, but that doesn't matter. What i believe is all that matters to me. i try to prove it to others but i'm far from good at it. i will believe what my eyes see and nothing else.""""
That doesn't make him real, not even to you. People suffering from schizophrenia hear voices that they claim to be real all the time. It doesn't make these voices any less caused by their disease just because they can hear them clearly.

"""And i believe in Christianity because, from what i have studied(no, not even going to say i'm an expert or close to done in my studying of other religions) Christianity is the best, it makes perfect sense where i find flaws in others. i will admit that other religions have certain things that i like about them, including atheism but from my current understanding, Christianity is right.""""
How does it makes perfect sense? The only evidence for it is covered with contradictory statements, actions, and events. Not even to take into account the fact that alot of the books in the bible have 2 or more variations of the same event.
This religion doesn't make sense at all, and when compared to science it completely falls apart. So you believe the flood happened? All forms of animals were carried on boats?
Do you follow the word of jesus to the letter? I doubt it because he said "If you want to be perfect, go and sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven." Considering you have a computer then you are one of the people who either don't listen to Jesus, or just write this off as a moral lesson. I'm sorry but that doesn't work, if your savior said to do something, literally an action, not to learn a moral lesson but to complete this action to reach perfection. Then why don't you and more people do it?




User avatar #235 to #232 - Vandeekree (05/03/2012) [-]
I thought this was over actually but at least you are interested, if only for the sake of winning the argument.
And it also doesn't make him not real. just because i think i see something and you don't doesn't mean you should assume i'm wrong. I'm judging from what i experienced, you are judging me on whether or not i have a reason to...trust my own perception really. That seems unfair to me.
Also, the bible makes perfect sense. There are no contradictions so long as you are looking at it as a whole and not just a single thing that was said.
Yes, i believe that the flood happened. And i believe all the animals that needed to were placed on the ark that Noah built. How big was the flood? i have no idea. What animals specifically were on the ark? I don't know that either. But i believe it happened.
I try to follow it to the letter but i admit i fall short...kind of a lot.
And yes, if you look at him saying that alone then it seems a bit unrealistic. But he's not saying to go do that right now. He's saying that you should not put any value at all in worldly things. Be ready to give 100 percent of your possessions to help someone else if the need arises. And not to work for worldly things but build up your treasures in heaven. That is what is really of value. He is telling you to do that, but not in the way you seem to think. Just tossing out everything you own and tada! you are now going to heaven! He is telling you to get rid of the things that are in the way of what really is important. Don't consider anything yours and don't lament its loss once it's gone.

User avatar #233 to #232 - noblexfenrir (05/03/2012) [-]
"""And yes, there must be right or wrong otherwise it's not right and wrong, i thought that was obvious. """"
When did I say anything was wrong or right? Nothing is wrong and nothing is right. It's all on how we define it ourselves and as a collective conscious.

""""because without God we are stupid animals drudging around on the earth for no point, we came from no where and we are going no where, there is no point to us being here, nothing higher, and that is a depressing thought, i like to think i have a purpose""""
My god...WHY DO WE HAVE TO HAVE A DIVINE PURPOSE? Why can't it be to be born and live life as we see fit and when it all ends the wheel keeps on turning? You see, you said you didn't believe in christianity just because it made you feel good. But this is the impression im getting. Just because you find one of the facts of life depressing, you are denying it and choosing something that makes you happy. That's not looking at reality, that is blinding yourself for the sole reason of hiding the truth because you don't like it.


""""and no, "to die" is what life does but is not it's final purpose. and it doesn't matter how you look at it, if there is no purpose there is no reason for being, if there is no reason for being there is no existence and if there is no existence then i don't know if we exist, i think i exist, so then i must have a purpose""""
I said we define our own purpose, the purpose of life in general is to die. It's the finality of it, as the fate of a flame (while others may expressly give it different purposes) its purpose to only itself is to die out. Just as with us we create our own purpose. We don't need a god, we never have and never will need one. Until one is proven to me, I will refute the existence of one. As should you.
User avatar #236 to #233 - Vandeekree (05/03/2012) [-]
It is true that i have looked at this world, seen as much as i have and am utterly not able to accept that this is it. It is simply pointless. A divine purpose is not only probably but required for us to have purpose. We had to have been created, we are limited and from what i understand, all things that are limited much have a beginning, or a creation. Without a divine purpose then i don't think we would exist. If that's not obvious then i don't think you fully understand the meaning of "divine"
But how can something that, by itself has no purpose, create purpose for itself? That makes no sense to me. I'm not saying i see God, but i see his works and i see the evidence he left for us to see(e.g. the bible)
I don't know about you, but i feel blind. I can't know anything for sure. it starts at that "i think therefore i am" and then ends right there. I can't be sure of anything. That makes me feel helpless. I can't see anything but a small window in front of me, i can only think about one thing at a time, and i have no idea what's going on around me most of the time. If this existence is all there is then i simply feel cheated. There has to be a God, for other reasons also, but because without him, this life doesn't seem to be worth living. Does that make me weak and needy? Of course, all people are weak and needy, it's part of this existence. i have no confidence in myself, i don't know if the ball in the sky really is the moon, i don't know if we really sent soldiers over to iraq, i don't know if there really is a place called iraq in a place called the middle east. I have never been there but people tell me it is so i believe them and without ever going there i have seen enough proof of its existence that i believe it's a real place. Could i be wrong? Yes, but it doesn't have enough importance for me to press the issue much. God on the other hand is worth looking for, that is why i constantly scrutinize him. One flaw and i stop believing.
#83 to #82 - thomasdb (05/02/2012) [-]
"i have never claimed God is provable. i only said that there is proof "

Wait, what?
User avatar #95 to #83 - Vandeekree (05/02/2012) [-]
Ok, time for definitions
proof: something that will convince a person, in their limited perceptions, that something is true
let me put it this way, if i saw Bigfoot, i belief he's real, it could be a man in suit and i wouldn't know because of my limited perception. Then if i come tell you you might not believe Why? because you didn't see what I saw, my proof will not work for you. I can try to show you what i saw but that could be hard because for all i know it was my fuzzy glasses that made me see bigfoot so you will never see him, even with a time machine. does that help at all?
#100 to #95 - thomasdb (05/02/2012) [-]
Proof: noun
1. evidence sufficient to establish a thing as true, or to produce belief in its truth.
2. anything serving as such evidence: What proof do you have?
3. the act of testing or making trial of anything; test; trial: to put a thing to the proof.
4. the establishment of the truth of anything; demonstration.

Also known as: Having enough evidence to call something is truthful. Maybe seeing bigfoot once is not proof in the least. You clearly do not understand what proof really means... What you have is evidence, and very poor evidence at that. You cannot extract a conclusion from a "possible sighting". Same goes for god.
User avatar #118 to #100 - Vandeekree (05/02/2012) [-]
You're not understanding then. if i see him, it is proof for me, if i show him to u it is proof for u.
The point of the bigfoot thing is saying that what convinces me might not convince you
#120 to #118 - thomasdb (05/02/2012) [-]
No. If you see him, it is EVIDENCE for you. Not PROOF. Proof is when it is confirmed, evidence is what is used to confirm it.
User avatar #225 to #120 - mylazy (05/02/2012) [-]
Sorry, I don't really care about this argument, but I did decide to read it, and you may want to rephrase this part. Did you look up the definition of evidence after you looked up the evidence of proof? Because here is the very first one. "that which tends to prove or disprove something; ground for belief; proof. "
#230 to #225 - thomasdb (05/03/2012) [-]
Well I have no idea what I would call what he has "seen" then. (possibly Mis-?)Information? I don't know.
User avatar #129 to #120 - Vandeekree (05/02/2012) [-]
It is confirmed to me. I completely know and therefore i have proof. Everyone doesn't have to be in agreement for it to be proof enough to convince me. Evidence is what i would present to you, it becomes proof once it convinces you.
#132 to #129 - thomasdb (05/02/2012) [-]
That's not how it works. Everyone has to have the same evidence as you do, which they do not. Proof is when it is TRUE. Not when you feel it is true. You obviously don't understand how this works...

But on that note, if you completely know, please enlighten the entire remainder of the world on your infinite knowledge of everything and god.
User avatar #138 to #132 - Vandeekree (05/02/2012) [-]
NO no, i know only from what i have seen. i will continue to live my life by that and search to see if i am wrong. i don't think you know how it works. Something is not right because everyone agrees it is. Something is right because it is right...redundantly enough.
We are people and therefore limited, you will never find someone with the same evidence as you. You can replicate what they did or saw and you might even get the same results but remember that is limited. And just because you can't replicate my life and see what I see doesn't mean I'm wrong...or right.
#143 to #138 - thomasdb (05/02/2012) [-]
If you cannot find anyone with the same evidence as you about god you have proved that there is no supporting evidence. This does not prove it does not exist, it only proves that we have no way to currently tell.

And for me god has no use because everything thus far has been shown to have clear scientific origins, and god would be little more than a spec of dirt on my otherwise clean scientific sheet.

And by see do you mean you have physically *seen* god while not under any effects such as intoxication and/or imagination? If so, may I have a description of what you have seen? I'm quite curious now.
User avatar #71 to #65 - noblexfenrir (05/02/2012) [-]
of said governments to things their non-existent god told them.

All I'm saying is don't get so hyped up on trying to prove an irrational afterlife and god. You have to learn to be alright with saying " I don't know" this is important. Saying I don't know and waiting for an answer than can be proven and makes sense is so much better than accepting any story that comes along to sate that feeling of unknown in your mind.
User avatar #37 to #32 - darkssen (05/02/2012) [-]
But there isn't proof, and if there is. I want links.
User avatar #40 to #37 - Vandeekree (05/02/2012) [-]
Alright, this is the best I am willing to do. I'm not saying all of these are in depth but it shows a lot of what i think he means. some of these biblical things can be proven...to an extent

www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1314725/As-researchers-prove-Red- Sea-really-parted--How-science-backs-Bibles-best-stories.html
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#42 to #40 - loljkkthxbye **User deleted account** has deleted their comment [-]
User avatar #47 to #42 - Vandeekree (05/02/2012) [-]
Of course, they happened. Proving that the bible isn't, at the very least, all made up.
Now prove they were God's doing....would be a bit rougher...
I have no links for that.
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#62 to #47 - loljkkthxbye **User deleted account** has deleted their comment [-]
User avatar #76 to #62 - Vandeekree (05/02/2012) [-]
But what caused those natural phenomenon?
Please don't answer or else we'll just go back and back till we hit either the big bang or god and i think i already know which one you'll pick because you can't prove what happened before the big bang right?
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#79 to #76 - loljkkthxbye **User deleted account** has deleted their comment [-]
User avatar #89 to #79 - Vandeekree (05/02/2012) [-]
Perhaps, if only to both turn and say "i can't convince you but i'm done arguing"
i was simply commenting about how what the original guy said is true, there are studies and science behind the bible, but they prove nothing more than that the bible is not 100 percent fiction.
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#103 to #89 - loljkkthxbye **User deleted account** has deleted their comment [-]
#50 to #47 - thomasdb (05/02/2012) [-]
Sorry, that's like saying: yes, we know thunder and lightning exist. If they were god or not is debatable, but it still proves god is real.
User avatar #60 to #50 - Vandeekree (05/02/2012) [-]
I never once said it proves God's existence. Only that parts of the bible is not made up and are based on actually events.
#66 to #60 - thomasdb (05/02/2012) [-]
Well yes, but you can say the same that parts of superman are real because they are based in a real city. That doesn't mean I should worship superman does it?
User avatar #84 to #66 - Vandeekree (05/02/2012) [-]
Please don't misunderstand me. They could have no proof that these things happened and it wouldn't change my faith. My faith isn't based off that, it is based off the logic of the bible. The way it makes sense. The way it is simply right about everything. More so than any other religion or school of thought I have yet to study. but i keep studying and i will find out what is truth. Could I be wrong? Yes, am i? From everything I have so far seen...no.
#86 to #84 - thomasdb (05/02/2012) [-]
You know god killed like 1.5 million people in the bible right? That doesn't sound like a diety I'd like to worship.
User avatar #96 to #86 - Vandeekree (05/02/2012) [-]
Wrong.
God killed everyone who has ever died. He did not create us and leave us. he is still here, watching. He set every moment of death for everyone. He takes every life that he gave. our number is far too low.
#124 to #96 - anonymous (05/02/2012) [-]
a god that mainly interacts in one time period and then after that just sits back and watches...and alot of the stories from the bible are just...well impossible

#97 to #96 - thomasdb (05/02/2012) [-]
So he kills everyone? That's even worse...
User avatar #110 to #97 - Vandeekree (05/02/2012) [-]
To be fair he gave them life to begin with too. To die is not a bad thing. In fact it is a good thing. if you didn't live then maybe you would never have been created at all. i think it feels good to have a purpose.
User avatar #180 to #110 - shesaidshewaslegal (05/02/2012) [-]
I just got here did I miss the ********* ?
#128 to #110 - kusherboy (05/02/2012) [-]
**kusherboy rolls 081**
#113 to #110 - thomasdb (05/02/2012) [-]
I think it feels good to know you serve no other purpose than to further your own species. What you do between the time your egg is fertilized to the time you have fertilized one or many other eggs has no matter. If you set out your own goals, fine, but don't blinding follow what others tell you. Don't blindly follow what a "god" tells you. Follow what enhances the community.
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