The devil gave us free will and the ability to choose and to discover.

In religion, the devil is everything that is wrong.

Science is the ability to choose and to discover.

So science = wrong in many religious eyes. Not all, but thats why it still cannot work together.

Bitch, please. None of those logic steps are true.

if you are serious with god vs devil thing, know the devil is the master of deceit, he can make you eat shit and you believe its a delicacy. When you say devil gives us free will its as ironical as saying to tie an anchor to my legs lets me float in the water.

- God gave Adam and Eve an impossible choice - they had no knowledge of right or wrong, so they therefore would inevitably take the apple - God obviously wanted humans to disobey him.
- Satan is the essence of freedom. Cast from heaven for refusing to obey God.
- Satan gives us the ability to choose right from wrong - God expects us to blindly obey and follow.
- He has never killed anybody (well, 10 people or so), been responsible for anybody's death nor ordered anyone's deaths - he has a lower bodycount than God who killed 2.5 million.

Its all in the bible, I am not making this stuff up. I just put it there in a logical form.

Bible...
Logical form...
Hmm... Something just does not fit there.

I just love how some people are able to devise elaborate scenarios based on a book and than argue, that the book is divine, therefore they are right.

This one made me laugh:
It's all in the Bible, I am not making stuff up.

Ok, some things indeed are 'vague' and can only be brought forward to interpetation of things that are in the bible. But a few things that ARE literally written in the bible, with very few forms of interpetation, were the things I have stated above. Thats what I meant...

Then why dont you provide quotes?

But what I really meant is that stating something in the Bible does not make it true. For all we know, modern Bible might be a very different book from the first one, as it was decided by PEOPLE in church which parts will be inside and how they will be interpreted.

I think you're right. But that is something we can never find out without going into the library under the vatican that has allot info on older bibles or maybe even the first writings of the people themselves before being passed on by generation.

If i tell you taking a knife and chopping your balls off is something you shouldn't do, do you need to do it before knowing that is the wrong choice. Satan simply wants us to rebel against God, because he believe he is more superior than humans, he wanted to prove to god we are pathetic and stupid, easily manipulated to not see the obvious, I guess he succeeded with most of the population right now.

Ps, satan knew god ... is god... more superior than he is, he never ever contemplate that he was better than god. Its simply proving god mankind is pathetic to god, he wants us to rebel as a form of his rebellion.

Ok, from a religious point of view I can definetly see what you are trying to say.

But from an agnostic point of view, you just said that every single person that doesnt believe in god, has no morals in deciding what is right or what is wrong. That we are all 'the devils puppets' that are doomed.

I could be curing cancer, rebel against the idea of 'god' and still be someone that has no morals in the eyes of some.

I never said people who don't believe are devil puppets, I only started on that cause you look up to Lucifer. Its one thing to be atheist, its a whole new level to look up to the devil, the bringer of your own destruction. ps, im not christian

Ok, let me get one thing straight before you think I'm some kind of devil worshipper :P

- I do not look up to the devil.
- I do however question the things he 'did' or what the devil is 'standing for'.

To simply put it, I am still curious about what/how/when, etc, but like every court trial, if they think they have the killer, while he may be innocent, they still need to find enough evidence, evidence that he may, himself made dissapear, or that he was framed for the crime that he didnt commit, to lock him up.

lol alright, apologies if my previous comments were so uptight, cuz the context of your comments freaked me out for a minute, first it was atheists on fj, i thought luciferians were up next. Still you should know one fact, god still cared for the devil, if god really wanted him to be gone, he can simply make the devil disappear out of existance and nobody knew about him... It seems to me more like we humans are being used to deliver a message to satan, and at the same time while being put in that situation, we will be able to learn that lesson along with him.

So, every human more or less is undergoing a 'test' in your eyes? A free-will right/wrong test that will finally decide who you will sit next to?

Apologies accepted, I'm also sorry for any opinions that may have been disrespectfull or harsh.

nono not a test, why would god need to test when he already knew the results. It is us who do not know and need to learn through experience. Its more of a lesson than a test. And why do we need to know these lessons? Only god knows... maybe stage 2 in the afterlife lol....

Ah ok, understood.

My book told me not to believe everything for what it is, but to investigate and discover for yourself the truth. My book serves as my motivation and guidance. Science was simply my dictionary when I don't know some physics when designing algorithms and making games. Get the picture anon?

That is absolutely and completely false. I'm a Christian and will soon be getting my bachelors degree in a science major with the intent of becoming a scientist and there is absolutely no conflict with that in my religion. Get off your computer and go back to school before you embarrass yourself further.

Since a while ago actually, the church (the old catholic church) oppressed scientific discovery for quite a long time during the dark ages and quite a while afterwards. It's amazing how long bad history leaves a stigma. Not saying you're wrong or anything, just pointing out why is all.

christians against science....

I'm done here, I don't even know what you're talking about anymore.

I've re read your comments and my apologies, cause initially it seems from your statement you are saying religion is the polar opposite of science because Christians oppressed scientific discoveries. And i was simply saying just cause christianity did that doesnt mean all religions do.

You're still misunderstanding. Never did I say they were polar opposites. I said there's a history of oppression of scientific discovery by the old christian church. And that is the basis for the idea that religion is against science. Nor did I say all religions did/do.

religion = christians? =\

Not sure what you mean by that. If you mean to ask is Christianity a religion then yes. If you mean to ask is it the only one then no. I was simply referring to the basis of the idea that religion is against science was due to the fact of actions taken by the Catholic church a long time ago against discoverers and scientists. Such as Galileo and Kepler who could prove that the universe didn't revolve around the earth. This went against the prevalent theory of Geo-centrism which the church held to rigorously so they attempted to bury their findings and silence them. Read up on a little history if you're unfamiliar with it.

And there comes the fact that the church burned almost every single scientific book they could find in the dark ages, while also destroying half of Leonardo's work. No actual proof of this happening except for some of leonardo's handwritings in journals and on the things he has created. The vatican for example is still trying to 'run peoples lives', that they are not accepting the fact that people want to think for themselves. They condemn every single thing that goes against the bible and try to make sure that all their followers believe them.

If it wasnt for religion, we could have been colonizing mars by now. (Rough estimation)
But since religion gave one answer and one answer only, while punishing everyone for looking further, we got ourselves a major historic and scientific gap that we can only now fill.

You're right. They also didn't want anyone to know how to read or write so they couldn't outsmart anybody. Lambs to the slaughter, I suppose. Gullible lambs.

Anyways, thumb for you.

yes, there have been reports (historic writings) of religious 'leaders' that wanted to keep their 'flock' dumb. Or atleast, dumber than them.

There were however also religious leaders that DID gave the option of free will to people and the believe in God, but very few of them went down in history since most of them were seen as the devil himself.

Was just quoting one example, at no point did I say it was the only one. And now as then only the stupid and ignorant within any religion try to deny or halt the discoveries made by science (there were just more stupid people back then who had more power than they do now). As I said in an earlier comment, I'm a Christian going into a scientific field for my career and have always supported and believed in the advancement of scientific discovery.

I believe you and I respect the fact that you are VERY open for discussion. :)
You are the exception the world needs.

Thank you, though I like to think that rather than an exception I'm, like others, just not as outspoken as the idiots, thus quite often they're the only ones you here about ^_^

If there isn't any power hungry, control addicts in this world, Christianity would be Christianity like how Jesus intended and we wouldn't even be on Mars, we wouldn't be in this dimension, we would be beings of higher conciousness that don't give a shit about the material world. Too bad knowledge about these things are hidden to maintain control over the population. All thanks to your devil btw.

And you wouldnt be sitting behind the technology that gives you the freedom of speech that you can preach to millions of people all over the world that you are doing right. Already drawing conclusions while it is a well-mannered form of discussion.

You're saying technology and what we have only manage to come to what it is because of oppression and control?!?! r u srs?

No, religion before the age of enlightment had caused oppression and control. People that decided to rebel against it, sought for answers, which brought the technology that eventually came to this. Look it up: Age of enlightment.

you should what happen is this
1. true facts and knowledge about god came down upon us
2. rewrite the stories into a tool of control
3. make people realize they are being controlled by 'religion'
4. make people throw away religion
5. the devil is a happy man

But is it really a bad thing? I do see your point, dont worry.

On one hand, we had a blooming succes of curing diseases, creating technology that can help others, the technology that makes us extremely efficient and even me talking to you.

On the other hand, which makes your point stronger we have an increase in crimes, pollution and created a whole batch of 'new' diseases.

Free will ist he option to choose between those and see what you can do to help your fellow mankind.

This will sound hypocritical because I'm using these benefits anyway like you mentioned before... but do we really need those if we achieve super-conciousness?

I think yes. Exploring, discovering the 'unkown' (for example, going into space), trying to find the limits of what we can achieve as a human race is important in my eyes. We have no idea if there is an afterlife or something else after death, therefor I think achieving those things are pretty damn important in my eyes.

The negative sides however will always be there, its just something we have to hope will eventually go away.

I'll give you an analogy.. i apologize if its a bad one lol.

birds make its home using scraps of newspaper, leaves and other garbage it can find, which are very important.. to the bird that is. How relevant are those things to us? Likewise for us with the knowledge we pursue right now as compared to when you achieve super conciousness and all those things come naturally and are pointless and meaningless when we are in that state, when matter can take form simply by consciously thinking about it.

English is not my first language, so i will try to see what you mean by this analogy.

But will we ever recieve super conciousness? What if its a lie to keep everyone on a leash? I think that is the biggest question out there that puzzles religious people.

The people that oppress and control, also hid knowledge, sacred knowledge, I do know that some of them are trying to achieve this, but if this knowledge is shared among the human race, we can achieve it a shit load faster no doubt, look up global conciousness. Then again if life were that easy, we wouldn't really learn anything from it now would we? ;)

If you're really interested in these stuff, you should check out on youtube this channel called: SpiritScience, but do be aware these guys are masons and are teaching spirituality, without god in the equation but instead; "it all came from ourselves"

I will, thanks.