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User avatar #3 - shaddyz ONLINE (11/23/2015) [-]
this just hurts me in the worst way possible
#47 to #3 - migueldecervantes (11/24/2015) [-]
I can't understand the hype around this game. It just sounds very superficial and I don't see how anyone older than 12 could get emotionally invested in such an aesthetically glib work.

Or is it that you are very attached to the characters or something? To the character by the name of Sans, perhaps?

I'm just trying to understand.
User avatar #77 to #47 - nanashi (11/24/2015) [-]
we get attached to them because nobody else believes in us
User avatar #80 to #77 - shaddyz ONLINE (11/24/2015) [-]
I belive in you
#84 to #80 - nanashi (11/24/2015) [-]
oh god, the pressure
#68 to #47 - holmesc (11/24/2015) [-]
undertale.com/demo.htm

Give the demo a try, it's about 20 minutes long.
You'll see for yourself if you enjoy it or not.
User avatar #48 to #47 - shaddyz ONLINE (11/24/2015) [-]
depends, can you immerse yourself in a gameworld? because if you can, undertale will grasp you and hold you dear...



See the thing is, Undertale is everything but superficial, Everything in undertale has character and "lives" so that when you play it, you feel like this place could exist, does exist

You cant be invested in a game a book or a film world? thats... just sad
#49 to #48 - migueldecervantes (11/24/2015) [-]
Oh, no. Of course I can. I love reading old Russian novels or Shakespeare's plays. My username is Miguel de Cervantes, by the by. Not sure if you noticed.

I love fiction and storytelling. I think they are among the most important things for an individual, more so than philosophy and art, even.

My comment was more directed toward this game in particular. I'd like a share of criticism on it, since I haven't been really able to find any except for things like "It's very emotional" or "It's really good" (which are not exactly what one could call "constructive" or "insightful").
User avatar #51 to #49 - shaddyz ONLINE (11/24/2015) [-]
well Undertale is more an experience for then then really a game.... undertale understands that games need to be played, like a book needs to be read and a film needs to be shown.

Some people can find it too slow or too boring if they cant get into the story, some dislike it just because so many like it...

you know talking about why we love undertale is like telling the ending of the 6th sense ...

Undertale is for us videogamers Inception under a sea of Rush Hour
#53 to #51 - migueldecervantes (11/24/2015) [-]
Oh, that's very interesting. Is there some kind of metafiction (or "meta-gaming", I guess) theme going on?

And, in that case, is it the story (as in the narrative itslef (plot, characters, all that stuff included)) that is good, or is it the "meta-gaming" gimmick?
#55 to #53 - shaddyz ONLINE (11/24/2015) [-]
The story and the character sell the game yes... and the music
the Meta gaming is fine, it doesnt get too crazy and actually has a really interesting integration in the story itself

if you are hearing that music ingame... you are a Monster
#57 to #55 - migueldecervantes (11/24/2015) [-]
Yes, I have heard that theme. That Kazoo guy made a rendition.

I thought that was a normal part of the game where you get to fight the "cool" looking skeleton.
User avatar #59 to #57 - shaddyz ONLINE (11/24/2015) [-]
I dont want to spoil the game, because it is my personal best game ever, you should probably play it yourself, its really cheap and you will forget yourself in the game
#61 to #59 - migueldecervantes (11/24/2015) [-]
Well... Maybe I will someday. I'm very busy lately and I'm actually trying hard not to immerse myself into anything, due to all the work I have to do.

I only allow some time for FJ since I can get off whenever I want (sure...).
#64 to #61 - acerose (11/24/2015) [-]
From a literary perspective, Understale is an outstanding study of video game moral fiction, and uses the mechanics, justifications, and choice systems, alongside more traditional storytelling elements, to craft an outstanding and vibrant work of novel merit in a way which can only be presented via the artistic medium of video games.
#67 to #64 - migueldecervantes (11/24/2015) [-]
Many artistic elements go into the creation of video games. I find it impossible to experience the wit and elegant technical skills of Bioshock with anything less than admiration for its creators' artistry. Moreover, video games offer storylines that can be compelling. They also introduce another personality into the mix: that of the gamer.But in my encounters with gaming - playing Grand Theft Auto IV, for example - I have found that my presence has done nothing to make the total dramatic experience deeper or more affecting. So if Grand Theft Auto is a work of art, my own oafish contributions to it have been positively deleterious. Maybe I need more practice. Even then, I'm not sure I could raise the fun of machine-gunning the odd gangster to the level of the best plays, novels or movies.Consider Shakespeare's Othello. Why should I imagine for a moment that my having an ability to intervene in the play could make it better? Would a happy ending - Othello and Desdemona singing a love duet, with me seated behind them strumming a harp - be an improvement on Shakespeare? Video games are good fun, but why do they need the validation of being called "art"? Isn't being fun enough?

-Denis Dutton, philosopher of aesthetics.
#75 to #67 - shaddyz ONLINE (11/24/2015) [-]
they said the same for film, they said the same for comics and they are saying the same for videogames, im pretty sure im not over my head when i say undertale is the pioneer of Art in videogames
User avatar #88 to #75 - ninjaroo (11/25/2015) [-]
>Pioneer of art

I wouldn't say pioneer. There's been plenty of pretty and thought provoking games in the past. To use the example given by Extra Creditz, who are absolutely obsessed with the whole "Games are art" thing, the first God of War was a perfect example of a Greek tragedy. Shadow of the Colossus and Journey were both very pretty, and told a damn good story with little to no words. To The Moon was heart wrenching and thought provoking. The list goes on.
#73 to #67 - anon (11/24/2015) [-]
Dennis Dutton sounds like a fairly pretentious ******* , to be perfectly honest. His attempt at an example with Othello is downright moronic. Why comparing shooting virtual gangsters to Othello is meant to be fair or sensible is a mystery to me, especially since how "good" a game or a play is is totally subjective. Why he's comparing such different forms of media is also beyond me. Does he also compare Shakespeare's poems to Dickens' books? If that's the case, I assume he also poses the question of "Why does having more words and making more sense make a book "better" than a poem?"

A game contains characters. They needed concept artists, designers, modelers, voice actors, motion capture actors. A game contains environments. They needed concept artists, designers, modelers. A game contains a plot. That needed probably multiple writers. A game needs to be traversed. A game contains a soundtrack and effects. That needs musicians or other audio experts. That needs an animator, level designers, people who make sure all elements intersect properly.

Anybody who doesn't think that all of these elements are art is moronic. Anyone who thinks that the sheer effort and skill with which these elements intertwine to form probably the most complex storytelling media ever isn't art is an idiot. If Dutton cannot grasp that, through actions in video games, DIFFERENT STORIES are told, he should stick to thinking about aesthetics.

Also, in my opinion, Othello was ****** .

By the way, if you're so curious about Undertale, just play the game. It costs like 10 bucks, lasts for between eight to ten hours or thereabouts, depending on your playthrough. Or watch a walkthrough if you feel like it. Form your own opinion instead of complaining that people aren't describing it well enough to you.
#87 to #73 - migueldecervantes (11/24/2015) [-]
>long argument
>opens with ad hominem
>cops-out completely with "subjectivity" in the first ******* paragraph

Yeah, bud. gg no read
User avatar #89 to #87 - ninjaroo (11/25/2015) [-]
So basically, you're too lazy to read, can't correctly identify ad hominem and are annoyed that a subjective topic is subjective. Congratulations, you're the second dumbest person I've met this week.
#98 to #89 - migueldecervantes (11/25/2015) [-]
No, no, no. Don't delete it!

It's funny and well said. I think there was just a huge miscommunication as to what I meant (and then there's the problem of me not understanding what ad hominem is).

My point was that he made what appears to be, at the outset, a "long-ass" comment, yet started it with an ad hominem name-calling statement, which can potentially be an index of the substance-less text to come. I didn't mean ">long arument! Do you ******* expect me to READ?"
User avatar #99 to #98 - ninjaroo (11/25/2015) [-]
">Long argument! Do you ******* expect me to READ?" is exactly how I saw it C:
#101 to #99 - migueldecervantes (11/25/2015) [-]
I guess that's my fault, then. I humbly apologize.

Psych. Don't you know? I'm perfect.

YOU better humbly apologize, now, bud.
User avatar #103 to #101 - ninjaroo (11/25/2015) [-]
Bitch I don't apologize for anything. My dog attacked a man and I was like "How dare you have your neck in my dogs teeth, now he's all dirty"
#106 to #103 - migueldecervantes (11/25/2015) [-]
I think the most beautiful scars are the emotional ones. They are slow to reveal themselves to others. It takes time and intimacy, and, above all, care and comfort.

They show how one's spirit was formed throughout the hardships that life ineluctably inflicts upon our miserable kind.

These scars show the specific struggles one had to traverse, the pains one had to endure simply because life was still somehow worthwhile.

Unlike physical scars, they do not claim "I've been in a bar fight in 1999! Pretty tough guy jumps on me, so I roundhouse kick him in the face, but he got one stab at me. Not too bad, though. By the way, you have a tooth missing. Is that from Nam too?"

Oh, No. Instead they whisper, on some cold dark nights as two good souls sit alone and slowly warm to one another: "It is okay. It will be okay. Life is possible to endure, despite it all. I seem like pain, but this is not what I mean at all.

That is not it...

at all."

lolz
#104 to #103 - migueldecervantes (11/25/2015) [-]
Dear God! You're a ******* horrible person, and that's not even slightly funny...

Is what I would say to a person if they did what you just described to my poor, adorable pit bull.

Trust me, if they think squirting blood all over a defenseless (well... nah, whatever) dog is "amusing", they'll have another thing coming.

Most likely from other, less adorable pit bull.

Battle scars; not very aesthetic, in my humble FACT.

Yes, I went there.
User avatar #105 to #104 - ninjaroo (11/25/2015) [-]
Hey, I know chicks who legitimately like scars on a guy. Shows character or something. So **** you, scars can be aesthetic if they want. They're strong and independent and technically do need someone to exist.
#90 to #89 - migueldecervantes (11/25/2015) [-]
Ninjaroo? We've discussed this together already! You even ******* agreed with me.

Also, I did read it, and there was no other valuable information in his comment.

How did I mis-identify an ad hominem attack? "Denis Dutton sounds like a pretentious ******* " is an ad hominem attack. There is no question about this.

If you wish to discuss subjectivity and art/video games again, I am up for it, of course.
User avatar #91 to #90 - ninjaroo (11/25/2015) [-]
Ad hominem is implying someone is wrong because they're a bad person.

"What would you know, you're hispanic" is ad hominem. "You're a poo poo head" is not. Anon went on to make points which you didn't respond to, which means that besides incorrectly identifying ad hominem, you committed the fallacy fallacy.

I would, but I'm taking summer school at the moment and have two engineering assignments per week. Strictly speaking, I've been on funnyjunk too long already.
#92 to #91 - migueldecervantes (11/25/2015) [-]
Alright...

But don't you remember our long argument about this? Although taste is subjective in nature, objective statements (reflecting aesthetic quality) can be made about it? Ring a bell?

I linked some points Hume and Kant made, and gave you an analogy between "art" and "pain" as far as subjective experiences and their evaluations go.

You have to understand, it is unbelievably annoying to argue with someone, reach a conclusion, and then see that same person ignore the conclusion altogether subsequently.

And yes, you are right. It is not "ad hominem", simple name-calling (not much better though).

As I've said, he did not make any good points. All were invalid. "Most complex storytelling media" is not only a moronic, but a legitimately absurd statement, and his basic point is that because many artforms constitute interactive experience, the interactive experiences themselves are an artform.

That is, unfortunately, a breach in logic.
User avatar #93 to #92 - ninjaroo (11/25/2015) [-]
Don't do this to me man. I can't stop myself.

Rings a bell, but I can't remember agreeing. If I did, I don't know how you made me. Aesthetics is the beauty of something, and beauty is in the eye of the beholder. It doesn't make sense to say that something is objectively beautiful, which is to say it doesn't make sense to say something is objectively of aesthetic quality.

If you want to link to Hume and Kant again, I'll be reading **** anyway. May as well be **** that isn't hardcore math.
#100 to #93 - migueldecervantes (11/25/2015) [-]
Certainly, yet I think the most useful thing to do is to ask yourself "what makes me like trash, exactly?"--instead of flinging any kind of insightful mode of discussion out the window on basis of the subjective nature of art/literature/video games/whatever.

I mean, opinions are just that... Opinions. No general truth can be obtained from them. While I, for one, believe that a more scientific inquiry ought to be had in respect to the causality between features of an object of art and the experience of aesthetic quality.

Do you see the difference, or am I retarded?
User avatar #102 to #100 - ninjaroo (11/25/2015) [-]
Ah, but that's a different discussion. Trash isn't trash because nobody likes it, it's trash because it's worthless. And art isn't art because people like it, or because it's pretty, it's art because it's the application of skill for the means of expression and enjoyment. It's under this definition that games are art.
#95 to #93 - migueldecervantes (11/25/2015) [-]
And I'm sorry I'm doing this to you, brother, but you are the one who started.

And called me the second dumbest person of the week.





I always come first, bitch.

But not in THAT sense. You know what? I give up
User avatar #96 to #95 - ninjaroo (11/25/2015) [-]
Yeah, I'm sorry about that. I've been joking to my friends that learning Currently learning, by absolutely no means even close to fluent German has awakened a tiny Hitler inside me, I'm just occasionally a prick for no reason. I considered deleting that comment within seconds of making it.
#94 to #93 - migueldecervantes (11/25/2015) [-]
I just remembered! We agreed that pain/beauty were subjective FACTS, and that facts, despite their subjectivity, are open to objective analysis and interpretation (since they are, indeed, possible to understand and are, to an extent, intelligible).

Basically: do you like UnderTale?
Yes.
Is there a reason for which you like it?
What do you mean?
Well, is there a causal chain that leads from it being an OBJECT to your SUBJECTIVE interpretation that it is good?
Yes. If there weren't one, I wouldn't be able to make a subjective assessment in the first place.
Great, so despite the fact that the feeling itself (aesthetic emotion/pleasure) is fleeting, it is possible to objectively determine the features of the OBJECT and its connections to your subjective perception, and thus make objective and general statements about what, to an extent, constitutes "quality" in a specific work of art. Thus, we can later on form these ideas into some code (which is what, I believe, is meant by "theory" in that spectrum of human affairs).
Yeah, I guess.

It was kind of like that, I guess. Remember now?
User avatar #97 to #94 - ninjaroo (11/25/2015) [-]
Right. That doesn't make the thing not subjective, it makes it not baseless. As long as you understand the distinction.

What I mean is, we can determine the causal link between the thing I liked and me liking it, that doesn't make the thing objectively of high quality. I like anime, that doesn't mean it doesn't belong in the trash. The best we can do is aggregate a number of opinions into what people like and say "Yes, this thing is indeed of high aesthetic quality, as it is appreciated by many people."
#65 to #64 - migueldecervantes (11/24/2015) [-]
So it is itself about morality? Interesting...

"which can only be presented via the medium of video games" sounds like a flaw rather than a quality, though.
User avatar #74 to #65 - shaddyz ONLINE (11/24/2015) [-]
no, not really, its the reason why book to film and film to book suck, because somethings you can only archive via a medium and not with an other.

Undertale cannot be captured as a book, because its too free and not as a film, because you could never made the connection you need to enjoy it to the fullest
#50 to #49 - anon (11/24/2015) [-]
Honestly, just try to play it and see for yourself, at max you will have wasted 10 dollars and 2-3 hours playing the game. Surely you have read a book that costed you more that left you dissatisfied afterwards.

Instead of going on here and seeming like a humblebrag or arrogant, you could just play it and make up your own opinion about it. There's a reason people like it, and if it's not your thing, then you hardly wasted time you wouldn't have wasted on FJ anyways.
#52 to #50 - migueldecervantes (11/24/2015) [-]
I don't understand why you had to call me arrogant. I've asked for information, nothing more.
#58 to #52 - anon (11/24/2015) [-]
I was telling you that your comment could seem humblebraggy or arrogant. Perhaps read my reply before downvoting next time?

The point I was making, was that you could easily just play the game, experience it for yourself, instead of asking someone online, about "how you dont see anyone older than 12 getting emotionally invested".

I never called you arrogant, you made that connection yourself. Besides, how you ask, says more than what you ask. You could have just asked "So what's the hype about this game about?".

It's all contextual. Really.
#60 to #58 - migueldecervantes (11/24/2015) [-]
I've asked that question many times, and gotten stupid answers. I believe people need to be challenged into giving elaborate and insightful answers. Defensive retaliation is one of the ways of challenging them.

And how crazy it is for me to imagine that the person who slyly suggests "people could think that you are arrogant, you know" does find me, himself, arrogant. I must be going insane or something.

Before playing the game, I like to ask question and obtain certain answers. If you do not wish to give them to me, that is fine, but be on your way. Others tend to respond less anti-socially.

Finally, my down-thumbing you doesn't hurt your account in any way since you are commenting anonymously. I'm simply voicing my discord.
#62 to #60 - anon (11/24/2015) [-]
Thing is, you're the one percieving my comment to be negative. You assume I was ill-willed, when in fact. I was making a point about you just trying the game, instead of wasting your time making comments that definitely can be interpreted as you coming of arrogant.

I gave you answers to your question too, I told you that you really should just play the game yourself. It's the best way to form your opinion about the game, experiencing it.

In my opinion, yes. You are insane for thinking that I find you arrogant. I don't, I do however believe to reconsider how you read into comments made by internet-strangers. You assumed the worst in me, when I was simply trying to get you to play a game I enjoyed, and telling you that your comment could be viewed as quite negative meanwhile.

To be fair, you could already have been playing the game for about 20 minutes now, if you had just gotten it the instant you wrote the first comment. And you would probably have started finding it quite amusing already.

Besides, the point about downvoting was exactly that: you voiced your discord before even considering what I was actually telling you. If you've gotten "stupid answers" asking about the game. The answer is again this: Just play the game.
#63 to #62 - migueldecervantes (11/24/2015) [-]
>I gave you answers to your questions
>I told you to play the game

Alright there, buddy. It'll be okay. I think the conversation is basically over now.

Have a good one.
User avatar #4 to #3 - phawsy (11/23/2015) [-]
Hurts even more when you read a message saying "Papyrus no longer believes in you"
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