Here's a thought

assassindash

Channel: undertale

Why do people always make it possible only to fight Chara in their fan canon fights and animations? Isn't Chara supposed to be the player, as in, you? Wouldn't it make more sense for it to be a choice?

I think a fight with Frisk would be pretty damn cool, especially if he was able to heal using the items you have stored and collected.

Even more so if he was just called, "The pacifist" if you choose to side with Chara. That, or the "Vessel"

"You strike the pacifist, but his determination holds him together."

And if you check him," Your vessel is rebelling, it's time to put it in its place."

"The Pacifist regretfully eats a snowman piece, he clenches his fists in determination to defeat you."

"Your vessel is tired, put it to sleep."

I just think it'd be neat. As for the combat, I don't really know how Frisk would fight Chara if YOU were Chara. Probably flash scenes before your eyes of "Good times" or something, or maybe Frisk would straight up try and knife your psychotic ass.

It'd be good times.

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Submitted:	12/29/2015

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+11

#1 - sasorioftheredsand (12/29/2015) [-]

Chara isn't the player, a clear distinction is made between them and us. Flowey calls the player that at the end of the game because it's the name of our save file. (Considering if we used our first names like we're supposed to, there would be another person with our name in the game, Chara.) Chara's more like a representation of the player, while still remaining a character. They're evil because of the whole gamer's mentality of: "killing this means exp, exp is good."

#2 to #1 - assassindash [OP](12/29/2015) [-]

How is Chara being a representation of the player different from me saying we ARE Chara?

And before you say whatever, just putting this out there, the name "Chara" is a place holder for "Character" "Chara" has no official name, unlike Frisk, who we control no matter what path we choose to let them go down.

If we AREN'T Chara, how come Flowey at the end tells us not to change Frisk's happy ending? Sure, we do lose control a bit when doing a genocide run, but I think that's because you slowly start to swap places with Frisk, which is why Chara asks for your soul at the end, because at the end of a genocide run, you ARE Frisk, not Chara anymore.

Am I making sense?

#5 to #2 - sasorioftheredsand (12/29/2015) [-]

You're correct Chara is a placeholder name. The name we are supposed to use is our own. But, If I'm Chara, who's that at the ending? who keeps speaking in red text? and who fell down a hole and became friends with a 6 year old goat and then died? It doesn't make senseif we were not their to experience it, Chara is thier own character, through and through.
The game makes a point of separating both Chara AND Frisk's identities from us. In Pacifist, Asriel at the end pretty much outright states: "You're not [name], are you? What's your real name?" (or something to that effect) In Genocide, Dialogue in general changes from "you [take action]" to "I [take action]".
Frisk's actions are determined by us, and certain actions might bring Chara back, in spirit. Chara will then wrest control from us as we continue feeding them. But we are not them. Flowey at the end is talking to us the player, if he were talking to Chara the character it wouldn't make sense, considering he himself says Chara has been gone for a long time and isn't coming back (As far as he knows)

#6 to #5 - assassindash [OP](12/29/2015) [-]

Several problems with that.... If I can think of a way to add a Tl.;.Dr, it'll be at the end.

1) He says Chara isn't coming back because Frisk is going down the path he would've chose naturally. Chara (you) allowed him to go down this path.

2) Just because you weren't there putting your hand into a character's story from the beginning, does NOT mean it's not possible to play as them. To follow up, just because the character is saying things you wouldn't say, ALSO does not mean you're not playing as them. Think Fallout 4 dialogue, do you control exactly what your character says? Only to a point.

3) And also, that whole change to "you" to "Me" You have to think hard about the context and the grammar of those words said.

For instance, why does Chara refer to herself, but Frisk would say.... You? Think about that.... It's because it's Chara acknowledging that it's Frisk's path. It's Chara who's controlling Frisk the entire time. It's why at any, literally ANY moment in the game, that good old Frisk can suddenly become a murderous child.

And since Chara was ALWAYS in control, AND doing the dialogue, who was controlling Chara? Oh, that's right, you....

It's still you....

It will always be you....

You chose to kill them all, and when you realized what you were doing was wrong and wanted to change everything at the end of a genocide route, THEN you weren't Chara anymore.... You're Frisk.... And you lost, because you, the player, can do whatever you want in the game. That's why you're so powerless to stop Chara after genocide (Or supposed to be, anyway.) Chara IS the player, and the player can do whatever the player wants in a game, even if they need to break it a little.

You getting it?

If not, here's just a little cherry on top, After Frisk's soul is given to Chara.... How come nothing about the game changes until the very end? Chara is in full control, right? And Chara was the one being evil and killing everyone, right? So how come nobody feels that foreboding feeling around Frisk anymore?

....

It's because Frisk was NEVER in control.... EVER....

Even at the end of the true pacifist route, after you give up your soul I mean, you still have a choice between good and evil. Either killing everyone after choosing to leave the underground, or lounging in the underground by choosing to be with Toriel, mocking Frisk (You at this specific point.) by laughing in his poor useless face.

The only time you're not Chara is when you're talking TO Chara, when you're watching Chara mock you at the end of a true pacifist post genocide route, or whenever you lose control of the character.

Tl.:.Dr
You switch characters, but that's about it, it's either playing as Chara the ENTIRE time, or regretfully playing as Frisk. Yes, regretfully, I know it's a read, but you'll understand why I say regretfully if you do.

#8 to #6 - sasorioftheredsand (12/29/2015) [-]

God, I love and hate writing essays for debates, but whatever, I believe you're confusing the player as in you or me, with the player character, as in who we play as. Chara was already said to have been a bad person in life by Asriel, why they would spare everyone for a happy ending is beyond me. Chara is a representation of US. Chara represents the mentality of the average gamer. When a game takes the mentality of the average video gamer, something that in the context of video gaming alone doesn't seem all that evil, but then applied to the context of a real, tangible world makes the character a complete psychopath.

Almost any video gamer playing nearly any video game does not have any emotional attachment to the characters in a game, or at the very least the enemies, whatsoever. There are exceptions with good story telling, of course, and no one gamer is the same as the next one, but IN GENERAL the mentality of a gamer is that "this monster means EXP, EXP means better stats, and better stats means the ability to fight MORE monsters for MORE EXP"... No one gamer is thinking about how important a "monster" is to another monster, if its innocent or not, or even if its worth saving, most of the time even if its POTENTIALLY hostile (and often times not even then) a player will kill it just for the grinding experience alone. This is exactly how Chara views the world she's in, she's not evil, she's not good... she doesn't feel.. All the characters, for all their quirky antics, backstories, and even pleas for help will NOT stop Chara from killing them.. why? because she can...
With this in mind, there's no reason for Chara to ever go down the path of pacifist with the genuine thought of being a good person in mind. Because they don't care about a happy ending. They care about "eradicating the enemy and becoming strong." Because that's what a gamer does. The only explanation is that Chara is not there in True Pacifist, There's too many holes in a theory that says otherwise. Chara, whose spirit DOES reside in Frisk, never awakens Frisk gains LOVE.

#10 to #8 - assassindash [OP](12/29/2015) [-]

I love essays for debates all together, both writing and reading them. Anyway, The fact Chara was a bad person previously doesn't necessarily mean they are strictly bad after death. I for one always preach about how evil Chara is, but here's a thought.... What if Chara's spirit that's attacking you doesn't have a soul? Think about that for a moment. Why else could she be able come inside you like you were some dirty whore? Gross analogy intended. Because without a soul, you're neither human, nor monster, you're just something else. In flowey's case, a plant. Even ghosts have souls, after all. Now think of Flowey, and what he's done and said, "I've made every friend, i've killed every friend, i've won every game, i've lost every game." It kind of makes the true pacifist ending more.... believable that Chara is living it within Frisk.

#11 to #10 - sasorioftheredsand (12/29/2015) [-]

I do enjoy writing/reading them, but it can be a pain to write sometimes And yeah that would be a good argument for the first time around, but the second time completing genocide, when Chara already has a soul again, assuming she didn't before? She's exactly the same. Referring to herself as "the demon that comes when people calls it's name." And when Chara is there in pacifist, she's assumed to have killed everyone anyway. In genocide she's physically seen wresting control of Frisk away from you, attacking twice, catching Sans off guard and killing him, killing Asgore and Flowey without your input, etc.

#13 to #11 - assassindash [OP](12/29/2015) [-]

Forgot to mention, Without making friends in the first place, Chara can't break the barrier using Asriel in the first place to open up the options of these choices in the first place.

#14 to #13 - sasorioftheredsand (12/29/2015) [-]

Well we know that Chara was skilled at deception, to an extent. She was able to make friends with Asriel, trick him into thinking her plan was just to free the monsters, when really it was just to restart the war, and get him to absorb her soul with the intention of possessing him for more power. Chara is more than capable of at least tricking people into being friends with her. Like I said, there's little to no evidence of Chara being present in true pacifist, and a whole lot to prove that she isn't. Supporting the idea that Chara is only in control in genocide.

#19 to #14 - assassindash [OP](12/29/2015) [-]

You forget how kind Asriel was, I don't think any of the other monsters liked the first fallen human. Hell, even Asriel didn't trust him entirely, that was pretty clear in the recordings. IF the monsters DID like him, they would at least mention the first fallen childs name, ya know?

#20 to #19 - sasorioftheredsand (12/29/2015) [-]

Well true, the Dreemur family is too nice for their own good, but eh, the point of Chara's absence in true Pacifist still stands.

#25 to #20 - fauxnix (12/29/2015) [-]

assassindash sasorioftheredsand Don't stop this is interesting to read.

#12 to #11 - assassindash [OP](12/29/2015) [-]

Oh, yea, that's right, Chara DOES question why Frisk chooses to destroy the world a second time.... Maybe Chara has to allow Frisk to do it because Chara knows that she will come off as creepy, and therefore nobody will trust and want to be friends with her? Just like in a genocide run, and the whole swapping control thing I have said before, Chara is just slowly gaining full control of you is all.

And I said in another rant that I think you have a choice, even when you have no soul, on whether or not to kill everyone. You can choose to stay with Toriel and laze around in familiar territory, or leave and finish what you started above ground.

#28 to #1 - angelious ONLINE (01/04/2016) [-]

>>#2, chara is something like an abstract being comprised of our gaming habits.

he states that he has always been with you, and that everytime you kill he gains power. after completing no mercy run for the first time, he actually suggest you two just move unto a new game to continue your massacre.

so in terms; you define what chara is, but you arent him.

#29 to #28 - assassindash [OP](01/04/2016) [-]

Too bad I said already that when Chara is not talking TO you, at that point, you're playing Frisk, not Chara. Hence why when you give up your soul to Chara, it's not the player's soul, but Frisk's, which is why Frisk always loses control and so on.

#30 to #29 - angelious ONLINE (01/04/2016) [-]

he is actually directly referencing to you...calling you his partner, calling you to just go and choose a new game for the two of you to rampage through and asking if you would give him frisks soul (who is also something of a vessel in that game land for you) so that he could break free from YOUR influence and go have fun on his own terms. not being hinged by YOUR actions any longer.

#31 to #30 - assassindash [OP](01/04/2016) [-]

Chara asks for your soul at that point, because Chara himself loses control of Frisk when the true pacifist route is chosen. Hence why Frisk is able to refer to themselves as such when you're doing a true pacifist run. Hence also why you're able to hear the conversation between you (Chara) and Flowey, asking that you don't reset, and saying that if you do, you need to do a true reset.

You're with Frisk until they finish the True pacifist run.... The game ends, and you speak with flowey/Asriel at the very end.

#32 to #31 - angelious ONLINE (01/04/2016) [-]

chara asks for the soul because its his way of seperating himself from you. as long as he doesnt own a vessel like frisk. he is always hinged on YOUR choices. aka if you dont strengthen the aspect he represents (killing things) then he will lose power. thus him bargaining for frisks soul is trying to escape from you. frisk as i said before, is a seperate entity acting out as a vessel for you. that is why frisk has his own name, while chara shares his name with you. rest of it seems like you are agreeing with me so i feel no need to repeat what you already said...

#34 to #32 - assassindash [OP](01/04/2016) [-]

(#33 add on) This is also why so much damage is done, because there's nothing Chara hates more than humanity, as we all know.

And damage, according to the game, is increased by the hate of another or the urge to kill.

#35 to #34 - angelious ONLINE (01/04/2016) [-]

damage isnt stockpiled by hate. its willingness to kill or fight. chara is literally made out of your escapedes in murderous rampages through out different games. hence killing things is all that his existence is. that is why he calls you his partner (because again, without your actions, he doesnt exist) and chara was never part of asriel, nor had any control over asriel. the two were in cahoots until asriel had a change of hearts. and chara after gaining control of frisks soul will urge you towards completing a pacifist run, because then he can move beyond your reach(aka to the after the end credits) and focus on killing everybody without being limited by your desires.

and yes. he does destroy the entire universe actually..he deletes the entire timeline, and creates a new one for frisks soul.

#37 to #35 - assassindash [OP](01/05/2016) [-]

it's seemingly impossible for a child despite being soul fueled to destroy the entire world, even Asriel in god form couldn't reach beyond the barrier. After, had he done so, wouldn't the barrier have already been destroyed when he used his godlike attacks or, I don't know, swallowed everything? For that matter, wouldn't he had been immeasurably stronger from absorbing human souls?

Wouldn't the mountain have been destroyed?

Sure, you could say that he simply reset again after the damages were done, but EVERYONE remembers what happened a lot better than they had through previous resets in the particular instant.

I know what Chara said about "erasing this world" and so on, but what if, and follow me on this one, he meant that in a future sense? What if instead of destroying it then and there, he meant he was going to take your soul, and use it to erase the world once he escapes the underground? As if, oh, I don't know, everything was part of a plan?

Just a thought.

And the whole, "urging you to do a pacifist run" thing happens because Chara can't take over unless he has your soul to begin with. "Why does he need it? Weren't you saying he's ALWAYS in control?" He is, up to a point. That point is the underground, or rather the limit. You see, the farther away Frisk gets from Chara's grave, and the more Frisk keeps to who they are, the harder it is for Chara to control them.

When you reset, the reason the starting point is always on the flowers is because that's where you're buried, and it's Chara's powers that allow Frisk to reset in the first place.

And holy **** i'm out of steam, and I'm so freaking tired. I'll get back to this after I get some sleep, maybe I can be more concise with my words than.

#38 to #37 - angelious ONLINE (01/05/2016) [-]

asriel in god form absorbed the entire universe into himself...did you even play the game? it was only after frisk released the entire universe from asriel that asriel decided to destroy the barrier(quite easily so) with his powers. and yea...considering he went from a flower to literal god death of the universe...human souls do wonders for people.

again, everything was "destroyed"

and no.the last thing everybody remembers was the bright flash, which was when asriel absorbed every monster soul. later on he absorbed rest of the universe.

chara, destroyed the entire universe in the genocide ending. you sell your soul to him for him to recreate the universe from scraps. chara then uses this soul to escape from your reach and go play mayehem to the rest of the universe without being hinged on you..

no...thats literally the opposite of what i have been saying... what i have been saying is that chara is never fully in control because he is an aspect of YOUR gaming habits. specially that of wanton slaughter. thus everytime you go on a happy spree in gtav or dark souls. killing everything in your path, he gains stronger. but when you go happy go lucky not killing anybody, he becomes weaker. in undertale he finally got the chance to break free from you and go on a slaughter spree unhinged from your decisions.

and no..when you reset, you go back to the flowers because thats the point where you fell down to the underground.aka its the earliest point you are able to reset to.since resetting is something special to the underground as it was supposedly created by gaster (thats another theory in itself)

then for comment 33...

chara does exactly the opposite of what you claim post genocide run. if you watch the ending credits you can see that chara has fully taken control of frisks soul.

and again. chara WASNT controlling asriel. they were in cahoots. until asriel had a change of hearts.

and yes chara destroys the world. alongside rest of the universe. he literally destroys the timeline (as noted by sans, and showcased once he does it) and destroying a timeline literally destroys the entire universe in every point of time and then rebuilds it from scraps in return of your soul.

#33 to #32 - assassindash [OP](01/04/2016) [-]

Chara asks for Frisk's soul so Chara can go above ground and do whatever he pleases.

Chara can't do so after a genocide run, the most Chara can do is end Frisk's life, and force Frisk into limbo, or more accurately, absorbed by Chara. There, because their soul is taken by Chara, Chara, with all her power, promises to reset the timeline if Frisk will give Chara his/her soul.

The reason Chara makes it a deal in the first place, is because Chara knows trying to force control isn't full proof. (Chara lost control of Asriel, remember?)

Striking a deal in which they give their ENTIRE soul to you, forces them to follow the actions Chara chooses. After you give your soul to Chara, Chara let's Frisk do whatever he wishes, knowing it will lead eventually to the true pacifist run again, and Chara can once again roam as another. Only, in full control.

(No, Chara does NOT destroy the world, at best Chara simply kills Frisk, and takes their soul against their will, and merely holds onto it until they're willing to agree to Chara's terms.)

#15 to #1 - SirFail (12/29/2015) [-]

Chara is the desire (or demon) within everyone to gain exp and levels in RPGs. The rush of joy we get when we gain new items or gain gold is Chara. It is the personification of our Greed and desire. Also Chara(χαρά) is Greek for 'joy' or 'desire'. (Such as the joy we get from beating a boss and taking the loot)

However, Chara is also the fallen human, the first child. Chara is reborn by Frisks determination when they enter the underground. In a True Pacifist run chara is weak and presumably dies due to not having any hate or desire to feed on. No LV or EXP and in neutral runs the level of murder isnt high enough to awaken Chara hence why it requires the death of every single monster in the ruins to trigger the genocide route.

In the genocide run Chara feeds on the murder and takes control of Frisk making them stronger the more they kill. Chara isnt actually the player, it is just using you to kill everything making you a 'great partner' and then chara takes over entirely e.g when at the throne room, Chara murders asgore and flowey and you dont have to touch a button.

#16 to #15 - sasorioftheredsand (12/29/2015) [-]

That's essentially what I was trying to prove, thank you.

#36 to #15 - assassindash [OP](01/05/2016) [-]

This idea fails entirely when you learn it's Chara that resets the true pacifist timeline in the first place, and that Chara very much has quite a bit of power.

Or, at least enough power to turn back time all the way to the beginning of when Frisk fell. Hence why Frisk doesn't know how to react or think about how to react ahead of time.

#18 to #15 - teoanon (12/29/2015) [-]

I was actually curious over how high your EXP and LVL could go without triggering the genocide route, and if theoretically you could obtain the same stats as you could in geno. It never occurred to me that Chara's SOUL must of been on their last rope when Frisk arrived. On a side note, any idea if monsters can still stop appearing if you fail to trigger geno route?

#3 - erikus (12/29/2015) [-]

A friend told me that Chara is suppossed to be the "soul" of the first human, who posesses you and that's why you do the genocide route.

That's why she says "Since when were you the one in control?".

#4 to #3 - assassindash [OP](12/29/2015) [-]

You're actually playing as the first human the entire time, it's up to you whether or not to be evil.

Like for your quote, even if you don't do a genocide run, and do a true pacifist run "Chara, or rather, YOU, are still in control of everything."

#24 to #4 - anon (12/29/2015) [-]

The distinction between the three is SUPER obvious as early as hitting the New Game button.

You are never asked to put in your own name.
Ever.
In most playthroughs, people don't input their own name. (I didn't.)
The command you are given is entirely different: Name the Fallen Child. This phrase is carefully chosen to do several things:
1) Convince people at first that they are naming Frisk.
2) Separates Frisk from Chara at the end.
3) Separates both Frisk and Chara from the Player.

Chara isn't the player themself, but Chara is aware of the player (the only character who appears to be.)
To broadbrush state that some characters are talking to the Player in random lines is going too far and without significant evidence, it doesn't work. Nobody says jack to you except MAYBE Chara at the end of Genocide when explaining that they are the desire to get higher numbers. That's about it, and even that strikes me as a stretch since all characters seem aware of the game mechanics, but none are aware of the Player.

But yeah. Chara, Frisk, and the Player are all made distinct as early as when you Name the Fallen Child, rather than Enter Your Name.

#21 - hanklecram ONLINE (12/29/2015) [-]

You 'fight' Chara by making the choice to do the pacifist run instead of murdering everything in your way.

#22 to #21 - assassindash [OP](12/29/2015) [-]

Well, maybe I want to kill his ghost and eat his ******* soul like a true goddamn genocidal psychopath? Ever think of that?

Nah, but there are a lot of animations around fighting Chara, so I was just pointing this out.

#23 to #22 - hanklecram ONLINE (12/29/2015) [-]

Chara's just a kid. Maybe a sociopath, maybe a lot of hatred... yeah definitely a lot of hatred but still just a kid that doesn't have as much experience.

#7 - teoanon (12/29/2015) [-]

Going off of sasori's post. There's a clear distinction imo between the player, Frisk, and Chara. The game is ultimately left to be interpreted as you see fit. The way I interpret the game is that the body of the 8th fallen child has three conscious forces residing in it. The first child, the eighth child, and the player who has the majority of the control.

The player, you, are essentially a god toying with the world. Acting upon it as you see fit. You just happen to share a name with the first fallen child. This distinction is made when control of the fallen child is taken out of the player's hands by Chara. This was done imo to show how strong Chara truly has become. To be able to take control of the world from a god who's curiousness led them to commence mass genocide. However as much as Chara would think they're in control at the end the Genocide route, the player, the god like entity, will always stand on top by having the power of a god. The power to alter the world as they see fit or to simply being it anew (Altering game data or reinstalling the game). This power needs to be realized or otherwise the distinction between the player, Frisk, and Chara made in the game is null'd.

As for a theoretical fight between Chara and Frisk.

Frisk as a pacifist is physically weak. This is stated by the game as your strength is determined by your blood lust. However, where Frisk is physically weak, they're mentally and spiritually strong. As Frisk's soul is shown to continuously come back to life through sheer determination.

Chara, other than the player, is the strongest entity in the game as of now. Little is still know about Gaster Once his soul gains enough power to overturn the player's control. Chara destroys the world in one fell swoop. And in Post Genocide-True Pacifist Chara kills all the Boss Monsters that were befriended. Meaning that Chara retains his violent nature. Along with this, Chara is also able to continuously come back to life through sheer determination.

However, these two cannot exist at the same time. Once Chara is resurrected, Frisk, as well as everyone other than the player is dead, and to restore the world Frisk's soul is given to Chara in order to persuade him to do so. However, this is not to say that Chara has 1up'd the player. As you can still have the ultimate say. You're just deciding to indulge Chara.

If we were to pull these two out of their respective timelines, Frisk from True Pacifist and Chara from Genocide-True Pacifist and set them up to face each other it'd be a standstill. Chara would continuously kill Frisk who is physically weak, and Frisk would continuously come back to life through determination. Being a pacifist Frisk would most likely not attack. However, heading Asriel's words of "you won't be able to always resolve things without fighting" Frisk might take up his dull knife and fight. If Frisk were to eventually kill Chara. Chara would then just come back to life since they'd have the same level of determination. If the player were to attempt to resolve the conflict without altering the world regardless of who the player sided with, could be done? Both Frisk and Chara have presumably boundless determination. Neither side would budge. Now, would the player, would the god who has ultimate say continue a battle like that? I said before that Chara and Frisk has presumably boundless determination but it the player's determination would vary from person to person. People can give up or lose interest in the game normally at any point.

#9 to #7 - assassindash [OP](12/29/2015) [-]

Oh, that's cool and a good theory, but something you said made me realize something.

Didn't Chara say it was Frisk's determination that gave Chara power? I remember saying that at that point Frisk is who you are playing as....

So....

Doesn't that mean Frisk should have more determination than Chara? That is, if my thought was right?

(Also you made a comment to me while I was typing this, ill go check that out now, forgive me if you said something I should've known earlier.)

#17 to #9 - teoanon (12/29/2015) [-]

[UNDERTALE SPOILERS] All Chara dialogue.

Chara does say that. I regarded them as having the same amount of determination as after that point Chara appears to have the same level of determination to follow through any of the other routes.

You bring up an excellent point however. I was looking through Chara's dialogue again. And at the point where he was talking about how his planned failed and he was overpowered by Asriel. Once Asriel died and turned to dust Chara's SOUL was separated from him. So why didn't he try his plan again right away when entering Frisk in the ruins? After the plan failed Chara lost determination and essentially gave up, and if he did so before Chara could end up giving up again when things won't go his way in a standstill against Frisk.

(Also I think you were mistaking me with your conversation with sasori)

On a unrelated note. I realized something else. In addition to saying he didnt want to hurt anyone. Another reason Asgore might have faltered when it came to absorbing the souls of the children at any point was him being afraid of losing control to them. Similarly to Flowey on neutral.

#26 - neverborn (12/30/2015) [-]

Chara, Frisk and The Player are all separate entities though they are intrinsically linked as of the start of the game. it's like 2 in the morning and I'm probably **** at explaining right now but here we go

Frisk is who we control, and (aside from the natural assumptions made in games where we ARE the player character as far as the game cares) a lot of effort goes into having us led to believe that they are who we name at the start of the game even so far as having the intro, the calendars and the old lab being done in such a way as to make you think the current year is 201X. however on a genocide run Chara points out that it's the date she fell down.

Chara, the first human to fall into the underground, is the one we see fall into the underground during the intro we know because it takes place in 201X, the character has a single stripe on their shirt, the character doesn't land on a bed of flowers (I guess that's why they get injured and frisk is fine) and the whole scene uses the sepia tint that we learn is used for flashbacks. and the narrator for our little adventure. Chara talks to us directly, unlike (almost) all the other characters.

Us, The Player actually makes most sense to be the one from the Delta Rune prophecy, and are a separate entity that ties Chara and Frisk together. Now I know a lot of people (including the hyperlinks on the undertale wiki) like to label the Angel of Death as Chara and The Angel as Asriel, but hear me out: we're the person that best fits the The One Who Has Seen The Surface descriptors.
It's worded really specifically, not; 'the one from the surface' (discounting Chara and Frisk), not; 'the one who has been on the surface' (discounting Asriel, Toriel and Asgore and Gerson because why the **** not)

"But neverborn, we never see the surface until the endin-" nope, it's one of the first things we see, it's the opening of the game. We witness Mt Ebott but never get to interact with it because we don't actually control Chara, we just witness Chara's fall, at which point we get to have our only direct interaction with them: we give them a name.
Cut to Frisk, lying in a bed of flowers in the present day. We assume they are the one we watched fall down and just named, we assume the little text boxes are just traditional rpg descriptors and we assume the places that fill us with determination are just a flavourful way of explaining the save system.

Re-enter murderplant Flowey, who calls us out on any ******** pulled with the save system and with morality, who helps us to understand the nature of mechanics we were using without fully understanding Flowey being the incarnations of 'I'm bored, I'll just save here, kill everyone for a giggle and reload. it doesn't effect them in my main run' and 'I wonder how this interaction would play out, if I don't like the result I can just get one I do later'

this got real ******* long, cont-

#27 to #26 - neverborn (12/30/2015) [-]

-cont

Now depending on the actions we perform through Frisk, we can have Flowey treat us differently:
If we do a neutral run, Flowey just sees another human, one with determination that allows them to reach, fight and best Asgore. Sparing or killing Flowey here doesn't change much other than not/activating the potential of a true pacifist ending, after Frisk goes through the door Flowey (if alive) addresses the player directly, identifying them as the one with the power to reset and controlling Frisk's actions.

If we go Genocide, Flowey sees the player as Chara. Chara is representative of players who are evil either for evil's sake or the sake of powergaming, she hates the world for some vague unspecified reason and revels in getting strong through the deaths of others By making Frisk act in a way reminiscent of Chara, you can cause Chara to impose her identity on Frisk, her narrative becomes first person rather than second person and Frisk starts acting without the player's direction, moving during boss dialogues and culminating in having Frisk kill both Asgore and Flowey with zero input from us, the player. At this stage she becomes fully and independently manifest, no longer needing Frisk or the Player to function or interact with the world. Chara gives you a choice on erasing the world or not, but no matter what you choose, she acts independantly again and attacks the screen from the conversation I actually agree that Frisk would be an amazing Boss fight, but Chara seems to like killing more than fighting which destroys your interface, crashing the game. (This either destroys the world itself or means that without you and your EXP and LV to channel through Frisk, she goes unopposed long enough to ruin the underground.)
When you get back, Chara goes on to ask you to fork over your soul to rez the underground and everyone in it.

(sorry it's really goddamn late and I have work tomorrow, Pacifist interaction and wrap-up have to come later) Cont -

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Here's a thought

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