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#4
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drastronomy (12/25/2015) [-] In my opinion this is the best part of the movie. It almost made up for the millions of plot holes, weak character writing, cookie-cutter plot, and the retarded autistic fits that the ebil sith lawd has
#45 to #5
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reaperoxide ONLINE (12/26/2015) [-] >Better than the ****** prequels
I agree that the movie wasn't bad it was actually pretty decent for most of it. But the prequels were far superior, they actually had an original plot nice action scenes and a cool perspective of what the world was like before the empire took over. 7 literally was a carbon copy of New Hope it is ridiculous.
I agree that the movie wasn't bad it was actually pretty decent for most of it. But the prequels were far superior, they actually had an original plot nice action scenes and a cool perspective of what the world was like before the empire took over. 7 literally was a carbon copy of New Hope it is ridiculous.
#6 to #5
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drastronomy (12/25/2015) [-] It was not that bad, but it was still pretty bad. Yes, its definately better than the prequels, but that is not that much of a feat. Even if he is an apprentice, getting his ass kicked by a scavanger and an autistic stormtrooper, as well as throwing those retarded fits, he is poorly written and unrealistically weak and cliche-like.
#32 to #6
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thekieran ONLINE (12/26/2015) [-] Fun fact: Jedi don't train to fight with swords, they train to let the force flow through them and guide their blades to defend them. Rey didn't start doing that until near then end of the fight where she started winning. She understood that she could ask for the force's help (in a way) before that she was just swinging the blade. (Also, Kylo didn't want to kill her, he was trying to turn her.)
#8 to #6
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anon (12/26/2015) [-]
Nice opinion and all but here's why it's wrong:
The Sith get their power from anger, those 'retarded fits' are arguably his most Sith like quality and will in future films be controlled as he develops his powers. He's deliberately been written as a parallel to Anakin and there is plenty of fleshed-out commentary about this within the film which is called 'foreshadowing.'
He got his ass 'kicked' whilst he had a wound that would have outright killed most people - and he easily ***** over Finn and then only gets outmatched by Rey because she is unexpectedly powerful with the force and it'd highly unlikely that he's actually had to face such a foe (Remember, Luke won't have gone full smackdown on him because he'll have been hoping for redemption.)
Basically, just because you're too dumb to actually interpret something doesn't make it poorly written - you're just a ****** compiler for a perfectly good code.
The Sith get their power from anger, those 'retarded fits' are arguably his most Sith like quality and will in future films be controlled as he develops his powers. He's deliberately been written as a parallel to Anakin and there is plenty of fleshed-out commentary about this within the film which is called 'foreshadowing.'
He got his ass 'kicked' whilst he had a wound that would have outright killed most people - and he easily ***** over Finn and then only gets outmatched by Rey because she is unexpectedly powerful with the force and it'd highly unlikely that he's actually had to face such a foe (Remember, Luke won't have gone full smackdown on him because he'll have been hoping for redemption.)
Basically, just because you're too dumb to actually interpret something doesn't make it poorly written - you're just a ****** compiler for a perfectly good code.
#7 to #6
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gmarrox ONLINE (12/26/2015) [-] >Unrealistically weak
>stops a blaster shot mid-air
>Withstands a direct shot from a bowcaster, which previously killed/disabled 3 troopers in armor with a shot each
>Literally pounds his open wound to get more pissed off and therefore more powerful (from a sith perspective)
Also his 'retarded fits' are more like how a sith, who harnesses power from raw emotion, would act. Being prone to fits of rage is a canonical sith trait. If he were to restrain these fits of rage, he'd actually be lessening the dark side's power in him. Also, he lost to Rey after being, again, almost killed by a bowcaster shot and worn out from fighting Finn. Plus, she only won after going all 'Jesus take the wheel' with the force, which isn't new to Star Wars. At all. Anakin was naturally gifted with the force, even without much training, and Luke's saber and piloting skills both increased dramatically if he relied on the force to guide him.
>stops a blaster shot mid-air
>Withstands a direct shot from a bowcaster, which previously killed/disabled 3 troopers in armor with a shot each
>Literally pounds his open wound to get more pissed off and therefore more powerful (from a sith perspective)
Also his 'retarded fits' are more like how a sith, who harnesses power from raw emotion, would act. Being prone to fits of rage is a canonical sith trait. If he were to restrain these fits of rage, he'd actually be lessening the dark side's power in him. Also, he lost to Rey after being, again, almost killed by a bowcaster shot and worn out from fighting Finn. Plus, she only won after going all 'Jesus take the wheel' with the force, which isn't new to Star Wars. At all. Anakin was naturally gifted with the force, even without much training, and Luke's saber and piloting skills both increased dramatically if he relied on the force to guide him.
#55 to #7
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hulibuli (12/26/2015) [-] I think Kylo Ren was one of the best characters in the film but much weaker villain than Darth Vader. At the same time though it would be impossible to compete against Vader's popularity so honesty I feel like Kylo Ren-way would be one of the actually interesting ways to go with.
I'd say Kylo Ren has the best setup for the next films as everything that you need to know about him was shown and told in this one. Rey is sadly the complete opposite and Finn and Poe has much simpler character arcs so they don't need that much of an attention.
I'd say Kylo Ren has the best setup for the next films as everything that you need to know about him was shown and told in this one. Rey is sadly the complete opposite and Finn and Poe has much simpler character arcs so they don't need that much of an attention.
#16 to #7
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adu ONLINE (12/26/2015) [-] There are some things to take note of.
His fits of anger are, from my understanding of the Sith, rather juvenile. Sith give in to their emotions and their passions, yes, but they're not so random and unfocused with it. At least, the mature ones aren't. A Sith can take their own suffering, let it seethe, and bide until they can release all of it on their enemy. At least, that's the way I've always figured it.
I haven't read any comic books or anything, I've just played many of the games. Kreia, Sion, Nihilus, Revan, Malak, Desann, etc. were all qualified SIth Lords that were never shown to be prone to tantrums. As you said though, Kylo is an apprentice. Perhaps he will be developed more in the future, with the new Emperor's training, but right now it seems like he has yet to master using his own rage.
Even if he was both wounded and just an apprentice, losing to a basic stormtrooper holding a lightsaber and a girl who learned to use the force 20 minutes ago is pretty pitiful for a Sith.
His fits of anger are, from my understanding of the Sith, rather juvenile. Sith give in to their emotions and their passions, yes, but they're not so random and unfocused with it. At least, the mature ones aren't. A Sith can take their own suffering, let it seethe, and bide until they can release all of it on their enemy. At least, that's the way I've always figured it.
I haven't read any comic books or anything, I've just played many of the games. Kreia, Sion, Nihilus, Revan, Malak, Desann, etc. were all qualified SIth Lords that were never shown to be prone to tantrums. As you said though, Kylo is an apprentice. Perhaps he will be developed more in the future, with the new Emperor's training, but right now it seems like he has yet to master using his own rage.
Even if he was both wounded and just an apprentice, losing to a basic stormtrooper holding a lightsaber and a girl who learned to use the force 20 minutes ago is pretty pitiful for a Sith.
#25 to #16
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captainfuckitall (12/26/2015) [-] You're right that for most mature Sith, their rage and passion were harnessed and controlled to let it fester, but it's not like they never HAD those fits. Malak was very well known for his brutality and sheer level of violence in anger, while Revan's anger manifested as more of a whip that he used to smite (or strangle) those who he directed it at. Sion literally held himself together out of pure rage and hate, and even more romantic and gentle (compared to the rest) Sithlords like Darth Malgus were capable of such powerful fits of rage that the entire area AROUND them was obliterated.
Yes, Kylo is far less discipline, but he is still just an Apprentice indeed. As he grows and matures, I'm sure he will be able to harness it just as well all the same (plus, he's also a relatively young man. It's not like he's in his middle-age, he'd still be in college in our time. I know plenty of people who WOULD throw fits like his if they had the power to, and they're not even SUPPOSED to wallow in their anger).
Yes, Kylo is far less discipline, but he is still just an Apprentice indeed. As he grows and matures, I'm sure he will be able to harness it just as well all the same (plus, he's also a relatively young man. It's not like he's in his middle-age, he'd still be in college in our time. I know plenty of people who WOULD throw fits like his if they had the power to, and they're not even SUPPOSED to wallow in their anger).
#44 to #43
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captainfuckitall (12/26/2015) [-] But he FOLLOWS a Sith Lord, and idealizes another as well. Naturally he would wish to follow and adhere to the Sith teachings.
#46 to #44
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runelh (12/26/2015) [-] We don't know if Snoke is a sith yet, TBH. At least not from the movie. It never states anywhere that Snoke is a sith... Only a dark side user, and if we follow the canon, Rule of two, Snoke couldn't had been a sith either, I think he also was alive during the clone wars and since Palpy never took him in as apprentice in all the changes he had in them leads me to assume that he isn't a sith. If he never was trained has a sith either, he might call himself one, but can never truly be one completely, since all sith are death and Palpatine worked real trying to hide his sith ways (Which we see in the new Lando Comics where he his willing to blow up his private yacht with ancient sith relics, rather than let it be stolen)
#48 to #46
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captainfuckitall (12/26/2015) [-] Actually, the Rule of Two is something constantly disputed among the Sith in the expanded universe. Some people believe it to lead to the best while others believe that it only weakens the Sith.
Regardless, as it stands, the rule of two is ineffective as there COULD just be two Sith lords who never met and still regard themselves as Sith while each taking on one apprentice. In fact, I think that's exactly what the rule 'is', that there can only BE one master to one apprentice, rather than only two Sith in the entirety of the galaxy.
And pardon what I said before. I thought it was confirmed somewhere that Snoke was a Sith Lord, but so far it's only 'likely', as he is a powerful Dark-Side practitioner and possesses items (such as the garments) a Sith Lord would otherwise have.
Regardless, as it stands, the rule of two is ineffective as there COULD just be two Sith lords who never met and still regard themselves as Sith while each taking on one apprentice. In fact, I think that's exactly what the rule 'is', that there can only BE one master to one apprentice, rather than only two Sith in the entirety of the galaxy.
And pardon what I said before. I thought it was confirmed somewhere that Snoke was a Sith Lord, but so far it's only 'likely', as he is a powerful Dark-Side practitioner and possesses items (such as the garments) a Sith Lord would otherwise have.
#49 to #48
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runelh (12/26/2015) [-] And what you described happens in the Clone Wars TV Series, where Darth Maul takes on his brother as a Sith apprentice and proclaims himself the sith master. Yes it can happen! But then those two 'parties' of sith tries to destroy each other, because there can only be two. Palpatine hunts Maul and brother down and proclaims himself that there can only be two.
So if Snoke was truly a Sith during the time as Darth Sidious, I am pretty sure that Sidious would had know and hunted him down for two reason
1) As stated before, all sith follows the rule of two and if there was to be other sith lords, their goal would always be to destroy them.
2) Because it could seriously mess with Sidious plans to become emperor, the second reason he also hunted down Maul, he was a threat to compromise his plans.
And I don't want to dispute the EU even though it isn't canon, since I see that most of it is canon until proven otherwise in the new canon.
But for what is canon and what I know, I personally don't think Snoke is a Sith Lord. It might turn out otherwise, who knows. But to me it seems like Disney (or lucasfilm since disney isn't writing it) are trying to do their own thing with elements from EU/Legends.
So if Snoke was truly a Sith during the time as Darth Sidious, I am pretty sure that Sidious would had know and hunted him down for two reason
1) As stated before, all sith follows the rule of two and if there was to be other sith lords, their goal would always be to destroy them.
2) Because it could seriously mess with Sidious plans to become emperor, the second reason he also hunted down Maul, he was a threat to compromise his plans.
And I don't want to dispute the EU even though it isn't canon, since I see that most of it is canon until proven otherwise in the new canon.
But for what is canon and what I know, I personally don't think Snoke is a Sith Lord. It might turn out otherwise, who knows. But to me it seems like Disney (or lucasfilm since disney isn't writing it) are trying to do their own thing with elements from EU/Legends.
#18 to #16
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gmarrox ONLINE (12/26/2015) [-] Kylo Ren's exaggerated tantrums are likely a hereditary trait from Anakin, who if you recall basically committed genocide because of a personal vendetta. This, I believe, is also meant as a literary device to show how Kylo aspires to be all the worst/darkest/evilest parts of Anakin; Kylo is a descendant of Anakin's rage.
Rey's natural aptitude for the force and strong survival instinct are also likely hereditary traits from Anakin as it is speculated with good reason that Rey is Kylo's younger sister. That would make Rey the descendant of "Anakin the Chosen One".
These two things considered, I think these two characters are meant to be an outward representation of Anakin's internal struggle between light and dark.
As for your last point, change "wounded" to "shouldn't physically be able to stand". The only thing keeping Ren standing after that bowcaster shot was pure, unfiltered rage.
Rey's natural aptitude for the force and strong survival instinct are also likely hereditary traits from Anakin as it is speculated with good reason that Rey is Kylo's younger sister. That would make Rey the descendant of "Anakin the Chosen One".
These two things considered, I think these two characters are meant to be an outward representation of Anakin's internal struggle between light and dark.
As for your last point, change "wounded" to "shouldn't physically be able to stand". The only thing keeping Ren standing after that bowcaster shot was pure, unfiltered rage.
#19 to #18
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adu ONLINE (12/26/2015) [-] Yes, Anakin did slaughter a bunch of tuskan raiders, but that wasn't a tantrum, that was vengeance fitting of a Sith. Slaughtering those who caused you suffering is how a Sith should deal with anger. Slicing up a room full of terminals because your prisoner escaped, however, is a tantrum. Especially since you could be using that time to FIND said prisoner.
As for the bowcaster shot, the fact that he got hit in the first place is proof that he doesn't know how to control his emotions. He can sense his surroundings, deflect blasters, stop shots in mid-air, and put his opponents in stasis from quite a range. Despite this, when Han confronted him, he became emotional and conflicted, losing his focus. He failed to notice Chewbacca aiming at him, he failed to see the caster bolt heading towards him, and he failed to stop it or even get out of the way.
As for the bowcaster shot, the fact that he got hit in the first place is proof that he doesn't know how to control his emotions. He can sense his surroundings, deflect blasters, stop shots in mid-air, and put his opponents in stasis from quite a range. Despite this, when Han confronted him, he became emotional and conflicted, losing his focus. He failed to notice Chewbacca aiming at him, he failed to see the caster bolt heading towards him, and he failed to stop it or even get out of the way.
#29 to #19
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akkere (12/26/2015) [-] I think (or rather I hope) that the way Kylo's character is to be handled is just like how we'll see Rey and/or Finn (and perhaps Poe?) develop into stronger and more abled characters like Luke and Anakin during their protagonistic roles in previous trilogies, Kylo Ren will also develop in his own way to being a strong antagonist that might even surpass his master and Darth Vader. Kind of like how Anakin got the **** kicked out of him in during adolescence and got gud in the next film (Snoke did want Hux to retrieve Kylo to "finish his training").
Kylo Ren does definitely have an unusual amount of tantrum, even for a dark side apprentice. I think what really makes it peculiar though is when you look at his master (who we really haven't seen a whole lot of, to be fair) and you notice that he doesn't seem to be the typical Sith Lord we're used to; he's a lot more calm, less prone to blaming people around him, and when **** was hitting the fan he was completely nonchalant in addressing the destruction of Starkiller Base. He seems to be what I was hoping Kylo would become when I saw the previews, which is that of a pragmatic Dark Sider that might actually hold a moral viewpoint who simply uses the Dark Side as a means to the end (though the existence of the Starkiller weapon is peculiar for this existence).
Considering that most Sith Lords usually have an overarching "theme" or signature style to their identity (Sidious for example being a master planner who gradually watches his enemies slowly get entangled in his plot), I wonder if Kylo Ren's tantrums are supposed to be a component to his main style, which is parallel to Darth Vader's theme of contained rage, only Kylo's is utterly unhinged and infinite. This would require a pretty good backstory (something this film desperately needs to account for all the missing elements as a result of the time skip) to explain the reasoning for this, but it would explain why Kylo is essentially the exact opposite to Snoke in mannerisms.
Kylo Ren does definitely have an unusual amount of tantrum, even for a dark side apprentice. I think what really makes it peculiar though is when you look at his master (who we really haven't seen a whole lot of, to be fair) and you notice that he doesn't seem to be the typical Sith Lord we're used to; he's a lot more calm, less prone to blaming people around him, and when **** was hitting the fan he was completely nonchalant in addressing the destruction of Starkiller Base. He seems to be what I was hoping Kylo would become when I saw the previews, which is that of a pragmatic Dark Sider that might actually hold a moral viewpoint who simply uses the Dark Side as a means to the end (though the existence of the Starkiller weapon is peculiar for this existence).
Considering that most Sith Lords usually have an overarching "theme" or signature style to their identity (Sidious for example being a master planner who gradually watches his enemies slowly get entangled in his plot), I wonder if Kylo Ren's tantrums are supposed to be a component to his main style, which is parallel to Darth Vader's theme of contained rage, only Kylo's is utterly unhinged and infinite. This would require a pretty good backstory (something this film desperately needs to account for all the missing elements as a result of the time skip) to explain the reasoning for this, but it would explain why Kylo is essentially the exact opposite to Snoke in mannerisms.
