Religion

Dude.. it was Yoda that spoke weirdly.. not Emperor Palpatine

he kinda looks like emperor palpatine and Yoda had a love child.

wrinkly face, greenish complexion, long ears. it seems like yoda. but the hair and clothes say palpatine. i guess its a toss up

Mix up all the sentences i must

*Thank The Force

What is the Crusades?

I know religion didn't start the crusades, but the whole of religion just leaves itself open to people to use it to further their agenda

if not religion it would have been trade routes, or exploration which would eventually lead to expansion, pursuit of a natural resource or a breed of animal like horses (I'm not horse expert but I think their called arabians), searching for treasure and fame.
Those are all I could rattle off the top of my head, but I'm very tired

That's what I'm saying. Even if it isn't inherently evil, people use religion to expedite their own agendas. It would have happened eventually, but if you use religion, you don't have to pay people to do this stuff. All you have to do is arm them and feed them and they'll gladly kill all the infidels they want

True, people still use religion for their own personal agendas, but now instead of giving people weapons and fanaticism, they are given food, or shelter, comfort, sometimes jobs and transportation. It may still be for selfish reasons in many cases but at least we aren't aiming to kill those who believe differently than us anymore. Religion is flawed only because man is flawed.
*of course I'm leaving out the fanatical muslims and fundamentalist churches like the WBC that comprise the minority of religious peoples, but draw the most attention making the others look bad*

Actually the motivations were mixed. The crusades are largely agreed upon as not being religious. Religion was a motivator for some, but Urban also promised wealth among other things. Look up some of the variations of his speeches. If it was purely religious then why did they wait so long? Why did Constantinople only ask for defensible help after internal breakdown and civil war? How did the crusades end up in North Africa? In Europe? Why did Urban already have a plan set up before he was even asked?



#Sources, I have a degree in history

Well, yeah, people are assholes, but i think what annoys people the most (at least it annoys me the most) is that religious people do all that shit too, but still think they are better because they have the absolute morality of god on their side. They are the good guys, no matter what they do. Religion condones murder, rape and general violence (and don't say this isn't true, if you read the whole bible, it turns out it could be a 2000 year old saw prequel)

The arrogance of that is what is so infuriating.

Not everyone is an asshole in a religion some take it very seriously. Every religion has its hypocrits but you cant blame a religion for that, and especially not everyone in it. I try to hate on a person to person basis if at all possible. You can tell a lot about someone by how they dress and talk.

What the shit did the middle part have to do with this agument? That peoples belief in a god makes them efficient warriors which means all wars originate from religion? Saying that all of man-kinds faults originate from religion is a pretty ignorant statement. I'm religious and I would think it would be ignorant to say that all of mans faults originate from a lack of faith.

(are you an edgy reddit atheist?)

-9/11
-Honor Killings
-The Holocaust
-WWII in general
-I can't even begin to mention all the wars in the middle east
-World Trade Center bombings
-Sacrifices
-Acid attacks
-The Crusades

-The Inquisition
-The massacre of the Armenian Christians by the Turks
-The genocide of Muslims, Roma, Serbian Orthodox and others by the Ustaša
-The genocide of the Roman Catholics in East Timor by the Muslim government of Indonesia
-The genocide of Christians and Animists by the Muslim government of Sudan
-Mass murder of South American peoples by the Spanish when colonizing America (God, Gold, and Glory)
-Abortion clinic bombings
-Lynching
-The discrimination against blacks
-Slavery
-Colonization of Africa by European countries (same Idea as God, Gold, and Glory)
-Molestation of innocent children by the Catholic Church
-Spread of AIDS in Africa by Catholic Church (Church says no condoms, people get AIDS)
-Indoctrination of young children into a system
-Discrimination against homosexuals
-Acid attacks

Tell me how, without religion, these things would be just as abundant. No one is arguing to world's problems would be solved. The number of needless death and pain would go down, however.

What I took from your posts are that A. You have a grudge against Christianity and Islam, which is funny because they ARENT the only religion in the world. B. You seem to think because someone has a religion and fights someone with a different religion that it makes it a religious war and not just a run of the mill hate crime. C. You've never actually studied history or psychology. D. You are more indoctrination to pointless bigotry against religion than most religious bigots I know are bigoted towards non-religious folk.

Frankly it is disgusting you would make all of these arguments in the first place without even understanding the events, the people, or the cultures.

Wow. Let's take this slowly.

A) I don't have a grudge against any religion so much as a dislike. Every religion has contributed positively to the world, you really think I'm that stupid? Christianity and Islam have the greatest influence. I can bring up other religion though if you want.
B) Actually, no. That's not the case at all. What I consider a religious conflict is a conflict caused by religion or when religion is used as an excuse for a conflict.
C) Define study. College degree? No. History books or websites? Yes.
D) I don't understand what you're saying.

In the following comments, I'll explain each event I listed. Thanks for being nice, respectful, and sincere. It's always nice when someone wants to have a serious conversation and never insults someone else before they even explain their points. You're so mature.

- The Spanish committed genocide against the Aztecs, Mayans, etc. in the 16th and 17th centuries. The Spanish "God, Gold, and Glory" justifies their crimes.
-Abortion clinic bombings have occurred several times within the past 20 years. Forgive me for my poor choice of words. I should have said abortion clinic violence. Nearly all of these incidents were committed by a religious person who was upset by the practices of the office.
-Lynching was common only 60 years ago and back. Surprisingly, nearly all incidents recorded were performed by extremely religious people. Their reasoning varies, but nearly always has something to do with god.
-Discrimination and racism play hand in hand. The Bible says that darkness is bad. Dark skin is therefore bad. Christians justified their racist views with the Bible.
-Slavery (refer to above)
-European nations colonized Africa and brought their religion with them. Through conversions (usually forced) they destroyed the cultures and lives of many African peoples. The same can be said for the Native Americans.
-You'll notice that there is an exceptional amount of child molestation within the Catholic Church. The sexually deprived priests and cardinals really have no where else to turn, and god doesn't say anything bad about molesting children. The Church doesn't even deny it. They just protect the priests and cardinals from legal trouble and move them to a new church who has no idea who they are.
-The Catholic Church encourages that no one use contraceptives. This includes condoms. Since the Church has such a large influence and presence is Africa, and since AIDS is such a problem, and since there aren't any condoms to be used, STDs including AIDS and unwanted babies spread very quickly. It does nothing but harm to people who are already in pain.
-I am indoctrinated? By who? I do my own research and actually think for myself. Who would indoctrinate me into the lack of belief in any deity?

cont...

-Discrimination against gays happens everyday by religious people. How have you not noticed that?
- Plenty of acid attacks are done in the Islamic culture against women due to women being viewed as lesser than men in Islamic countries. Where does this sexism come from? The Koran. You can look up the verses yourself.
-Religion still played a major role in the Inquisition. I never said my list only dealt with religion
-I'm not even going to reply to you on the Armenians through Sudan genocides. Look them up. They happened.
-9/11 and the Middle east are viewed as political and land disputes generally, right? Well, they are. They're also religious. This all stems from the creation of Israel, which the middle eastern countries didn't like. The got Israel because they claimed it was their homeland and that since the Torah says the land was promised to them by god, the got it. Of course, the Palestinians had been taught by the Koran that the land that is now Israel was given to them by god. This only created more and more problems for them, which lead up to what is going on right now.
-Honor Killings are very popular in Islamic nations. It's allowed because it's allowed in the Koran.
-The Holocaust and WWII were lead and started by Adolf Hitler. As it turns out, Hitler grew up Catholic and continued to be extremely religious throughout his life. He wrote in Mein Kamf that he was doing the will of god.
-I included sacrifices in their to include the primal religions and beliefs of South American tribes and other religions similar to them throughout the world.
-Religion played a major role in the Crusades. It's not hard to see.

I never said that any and all of the events I mentioned were only caused by religion. There are many factors to all of them and exceptions to all of them as well. Many acid attacks are just against women for no religious reasons at all. WWII and the Holocaust were also caused because Hitler was batshit insane.

cont.

I would never put something on the list I gave if I even thought religion didn't play a role in it. My thing about religion is that it's used as an excuse for many, many conflicts throughout history.

Of course, there are many wonderful things about religion as well. Italy wouldn't have experience the Renaissance. Culture would be lacking without it. There are many, many charities run by religious organizations that do a ton of good in the world. Many religions teach love and kindness as well, but they also teach hate, violence, and discrimination.

I would never be so immature to suggest that religion is the only cause of conflict in the world. If there were no religion, conflicts would definitely arise and terrible things would still happen. I'm just saying there'd probably be less. This picture sums up my view pretty well. Gotta love some Freud.

-Mass murder of South American peoples by the Spanish when colonizing America You're an idiot.
-Abortion clinic bombings
Refer to me calling you an idiot.
-Lynching
Refer to me calling you an idiot.
-The discrimination against blacks
I really feel like you are trying hard here but your brain just lacks the logical capacity to think what you are saying through.
-Slavery
Racism has nothing to do with religion, existed before religion and will exist after.
-Colonization of Africa by European countries
Again you are completely off base, go back and study history.
-Molestation of innocent children by the Catholic Church
Molestation by just about every social group ever. Sick people are everywhere and THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RELIGION.
-Spread of AIDS in Africa by Catholic Church
I don't... even... where do you get your facts?
-Indoctrination of young children into a system:Indoctrination seemed to work on you as an adult, what is your point? Idiots are brainwasted easily? Don't need religion for that.
-Discrimination against homosexuals :Hahaha, oh god that is priceless. If no one thought you were ignorant before that will do it.
-Acid attacks :You said this one twice, both times you are off base.

Lets continue with how wrong you are.
-The Inquisition Was political as it was religious.
-The massacre of the Armenian Christians by the Turks
Did you attend any school beyond the 5th grade?
-The genocide of Muslims, Roma, Serbian Orthodox and others by the Ustaša
Don't know this one but I feel like you are wrong based on the track record of being so wrong all the time.
-The genocide of the Roman Catholics in East Timor by the Muslim government of Indonesia
Refer to religios people fighting =/= over religion
-The genocide of Christians and Animists by the Muslim government of Sudan
R-E-A-D a B-O-OK

oh man let's see how you are wrong.
and I assure you that you are, in fact, wrong.

-9/11
Do you even know why we are in conflict with the East? The conflict was secular but religious people were used. In that sense it is exactly the same as every war ever.
-Honor Killings
You might want to google that, because I don't think you know what it means.
-The Holocaust
Again, you are wrong there. Religion was not the driving force, though it played a roll, mostly it was the fact Hitler was crazy and it is a lot easier to brain wash people into thinking others are the cause of their problems.
-WWII in general
I don't know what to say to this besides I hope you are trolling.
-I can't even begin to mention all the wars in the middle east
You don't know history, conflict between religious groups does not = a religious war. If I stabbed you multiple times because I wanted your house, and we were different religions would that make it a religious hate crime?
-World Trade Center bombings
Refer to 9/11
-Sacrifices
Yes, some religions did that. But every culture has at some point another killed a human being, religious or not.
-Acid attacks
Again, google that because it doesn't mean what you think it means.
-The Crusades
Have you ever read a book on the crusades? There are dozens of major crusades and they all happened for various reasons. Again just because Christians were on one side and Muslims were on the other doesn't make it a religious war. In fact some Crusades involved Christians fighting Christians and Christians allying with other countries who weren't Christian.

Well if it was considered okay at the time then there's really nothing wrong with it. Like slavery and Nazi genocide.

Well yeah if you go with that logic. But the thing is that he didn't enslave or mass murder anyone with his nine year old wife.

Oh he did, the amount of war brought on to the world by the islamic conquest is great, even right fucking now we see jihad first hand in all the terrorism around the world. The most sad thing is that the islamic conquest not only butchered, raped and enslaved people they destroyed entire cultures and languages. My ancestry is living proof. I am a Copt of Egypt. The only reason our bloodline survives is that we had money to pay something called Jizzia(mentioned in the Quran) which is something you pay in order not get killed by the muslims. The muslims cut the tongues of anyone who spoke in the coptic language and eventually the language died. Don't you go around saying he didn't murder anyone, he did not only kill many of us, he also killed our culture and language.

Just because his crimes were not unrivaled doesn't make the excuse of "it was considered okay at the time" any less poor.

There is no definitive wrong or right, dipshit. If you do what everybody else does, you're right in their eyes. The only time people can be morally wrong is when they do something against society's views.

So no, we can't fucking judge Mohammed for something that nobody told him was wrong

You shouldn't have to be told that forcing a nine year old girl into sex and domestic slavery is wrong, and it's apologists like you that allow "society's views" to stay fucked up for so long. But by all means continue defending Muhammed with butthurt cursing and red thumbs.

how is that allowing society's views to remain fucked up?
He's just saying, that they change - he doesn't state for better or worse, but i think he means better
In a 1000 years they'll proply think we were some sorts of cavemen, for having regular sex, when we have had the ability to design the perfect baby IVF (In vitro fertilization)... Or that the sociaty didn't have any moral, for letting some companies ruining Their planet, even though we could have changed the oil dependancy in the 70's..
Or let a few dozen people/families/companies accumulate more than enough wealth to finance North Korea, to get them up to western standards, in a month, but doesn't .
...

And you don't know if he's working for/monthly donating to Amnesty, Green Peace, Doctors Without Boarders, one of the several demining groups from around the world? perhaps he helps at the local shelter a couple of times a year or what not, helping society in a better direction..

Who the fuck cares what kind of charity he performs? I hardly want to analyze his moral compass that thoroughly.

You are speaking soooo big picture and that's not really where my interest is at in this conversation, so pardon my lack of response to most of what you said.

And yet he is considered one of the most influential person in history.

So are a bunch of other terrible people??? Why are you replying to me with irrelevant non-sequiters?

Because I'm bored.

I've read parts of the koran, and he says "every good muslim will drive out the non-muslims. if they refuse to leave, spill their blood and force them out, for this is the land of allah and he has given it to us"

Paraphrased, since i don't have the koran with me at the moment.

but there are many verses where he says shit like that.

First of all the Qu'ran isn't the word of Muhammad, but the divine word of Allah. This part from the Qu'ran is always taken out of context. If you actually read the story that goes with it, then it would make more sense. That part is talking about how the non-believers banished the Muslims from their land. Then Muhammad said that they will pray the evening prayer in their home land, meaning that they plan on taking their land back. So they had a battle and took back what belonged to them in the first place.

>"taken out of context"

So you're saying who ever wrote the koran my buddy uses only copied some of the text so that way when i read it, it would appear out of context?

those cheeky bastards.


You should check out Anton LaVey's Satanic Bible if you'd like a book to base your life on.

You can't just ignore the things you don't like about your bible.

There was a time for slavery, but the genocide thing had to stop. Nobody knew it was even happening until soldiers found the camps. Point is, nobody agreed (even at that time) that genocide was okay.

"A time for slavery?" Interesting. Anyway yeah you've kind of got a point about the genocide, though you don't kill 8 digits worth of your own citizens with a handful of people. Anyway, this is a bit off topic, but when Hitler was freely elected by the German people, he wasn't declaring genocide but he made it known he would make the Jews out as scapegoats. Anyway, I don't want to drag you into a discussion that's too far off topic so feel free to ignore me.

Haha, no. Not a handful, there were many many SS soldiers. But i meant citizens (outside of the jews), they probably did not know what was going on. Of course the perpetrator knows.

Since when was Nazi genocide ok?

GOOGLE SARCASM, SOCRATES

Agreed, anyone here want to tell us the ages of Romeo and Juliet?

If other people did it then it's okay

Juliet was 13 and Romeo was around early 20's.

Yes, seems about right for the time, even the minor advances in Medicine during that time would bring the age gap between men and women closer.

She was 19

He actually had many wives, Aisha bint Abu Bakr was his youngest.

yes im very aware she was the youngest of the prophet wifes

Doesnt mean its ok. Its a fricken 9 year old girl. I don't take care what time period that is in that is fucked up. Also a 9 year old hasnt even started going through puberty yet so your logic is flawed.

For them, the start of menstruation meant puberty for a girl. It was very likely for a 9 year old girl to have started her period.

Different time, different culture, different religion, different morals. Differences do matter, and you're a twit.

Your comment was respectful till end. Then you insulted me. No credibility.

then you have a very narrow mind. you cannot understand that back in those days, that was NORMAL? the same we have things that are considered normal today?

wow dude..

People go through puberty at different times, for some people it's early, others are late.

"I do history at university"








seems legit