Mutants and Masterminds is one of the funnest games ever.

Also, whoever made this forgot Star Wars Saga Edition! Disgraceful.

Everyone is John actually looks really fun. Could make some hilarious drunk nights with my buddies.

At what level would Pokemon Tabletop United fall? I feel like it would probably be casual.

no-one plays fatal

Idk if I should post the unpopular opinion puffin alongside this comment, but I thought Anima is pretty legit

***** i do casual level,i just posted it for fun

That awkward moment when the system you play isn't even on the chart. Stars without Numbers. Also Dungeon world is way easier to play than D&D

Holy **** , someone else plays Stars Without Number? Awesome.

The Good **** : FATE, 4E, Pathfinder, 3.5, Mutants & Masterminds
Being A Huge Faggot: Everything Else

>4e
>good ****

Choose one!

It's easily the best D&D for people who like especially tactical combat.

It's MMO simulation the pen and paper game

...yeah, a bit, and if I had an MMO with a fully personalized storyline, party, and playstyle i'd be playing that instead. I don't see how that's a bad thing.

Would have assumed people went to pen and paper for a more atmospheric and realized fantasy experience, and not just "lel it's an MMO now, choose your daily, go kill boars"

You're purposefully misconstruing my point. I see formal quests as a necessary evil in computer MMO's, and if I could do away with them I would. That's why I play D&D. Like I said, 'a fully personalized storyline', including the quests. Maybe you should find a DM for 4e that isn't ass. I have literally never seen, played with or heard of a 4e DM that played like that.

It's the feel of the system, how it's designed.

Everything is in a more tiered system than it was before, the paint on the object matters a lot. The mechanics aren't even attempted to be explained in a fantasy way, everything is black and white MMO-like descriptors and feel.

The tools you're handed don't feel like you're holding rules to create a universe of fantasy and wonder, they make you feel like you're just holding bland rule dictations.

Virtually everything in 4E D&D comes with its own flavor text, from the items to the powers. It's not as if previous Editions didn't have things with really gamey descriptions. Look at virtually every spell in 3.5. The only difference is that 4E has specific keywords that define things in a uniform way that allows you to get to the meat of what a spell does without a whole paragraph to make sure you know that this spell summons some tentacles that are such and such size in a 20' radius that will do such and such, can't be such and such'd, and grapple every round. 4E just lets you know that it's an Area Burst 4, it does this attack, and that attack happens whenever you sustain it. It conveys the same information with fewer terms and just as much flavor text. And, what's more, because everybody's running off the same terms of Bursts, Blasts, Walls, etc., it's much rarer that any class is getting left behind in terms of utility or damage. 4E fixed the problem of the quadratic Wizard, which is more than any other Edition can say.

So the DM can take about two hours planning a campaign that immerses you, like a good DM should be able to do in the first place. 4e does the smart thing- provide an amazing structure for rollplay, and leaves the roleplay up to the dm. As it should be. Without structure campaigns are just so unfun. The only thing any 4e player really pays attention to are feats, skills, traits, etc.; the fun stuff, customizing your character. The stuff that's actually in the core rulebook. If people don't like the items that a supplamental book gives, or the quests a supplamental book gives, they don't use that supplamental book.If a dm spends just a little bit of time and effort on his campaign, it works better than anything else. It's up to the player to involve themselves in the game, not the rulebooks.

Saying that it's the 'feel' is a weak argument too, since the feel changes dm to dm.

I'm sorry. You've failed to convince me with this line of argument. You're just telling me how you think 4e is played when, as a 4e player, I know better than you do. You haven't said any concrete flaws exist besides the 'feel'. I'm open to more argument, but you need a different angle.

See, this is one of these things that you told me.

Maybe you've had a ****** GM, because "structure" can mean so many different things. A good improv GM provides a significantly better fantasy world experience than a GM who's trying to make everything into a video game.

In 4e it is significantly harder for you to feel like a warrior in a fantastical world when you KNOW that you have an awesome ability each day, and you KNOW you can use strong abilities each fight without any sort of downside. It encourages min-maxing of the system. 4e does little to nothing better than any other systems other than allowing hyper fast GM prep since everything is so streamlined, but the job of a GM isn't to be quick, it's to make a good experience, and I just don't see the enjoyment of "behold my massive and uncostly power, given to me by my level 9 staff!"

See, that's one of the retarded answers I've heard that I was telling magicmatchsticks about.

How is it any more like an MMO than literally any other edition of D&D? That makes zero sense.

No, it makes perfect sense.

It impersonalizes literally every aspect of an RPG.

Things are given very specific MMO-like structures, you have dailes, actives, etc.
The items are also structured in a tiered system

Impersonalizes how, exactly?

You've always had dailies in one form or another since 1E. Wizards and Clerics have so many spells per days. Clerics have so many turn attempts per day. Barbarians can rage so many times per day. Bards can sing so many times per day. It's the same thing in 4E. In fact, all of the Barbarian's daily powers are rages, and many of the Bard's dailies are songs!

Actives? That's not a thing with which I'm familiar. There's no Actives in 4E.

Items in past editions were also structured in tiers. In the loot tables you've got minor, medium, and major magic items. Many magic items came in lesser, default, and greater forms, and in various +X flavors. All of those had points at which a party would be expected to find or be able to afford them. That's a tier system. 4E just made it more transparent and incorporated it as a mechanic for giving other abilities, feats, and powers varying effectiveness, just like magic items. It was a nice, logical progression of systems previous editions had already established.

If you're thinking 4E's tiers can be reasonably equated to, say, World of Warcraft's tiered endgame gear, that's laughable. That just shows how nonsensical this MMO comparison is, and how little you obviously know about the system. As I said, WoW's raiding gear tiers are endgame content that are obtained solely through raid progression. The tiers in 4E are Heroic, Paragon, and Epic, and these cover every level of play throughout the character's career. Heroic is level 1-10, Paragon is 11-20, and Epic is 21-30. All this does is attempt to categorize the players' progression and their characters' impact on the realms, as well as allow some abilities to have their own progression. For instance, the 4E version of Weapon Focus has you pick a group of similar weapons, like axes, and get a scaling +1/+2/+3 to damage rolls with such weapons at each tier. Again, this is something that compartmentalizes all levels of play, and is completely unrelated to MMO-style tiers.

You really have never had dailies in other RPGs, only if you were that particular level at the time, but it made the spells feel like they mattered, not "there is absolutely no down side for me using this thing, it costs literally nothing and I will for sure guaranteed have it tomorrow" Same with everything else. No cost, no downside. You get a free ability to use every fight? You heal like you're the god of war from a simple rest?

Actives were what I was calling the every fight specific abilities, I forget their names.

This is true, but it had actual fantasy flavor to it, 4e, much less so, it's very half-assed in design and aesthetic.

There are MMOs that exist that aren't WoW, that's not a valid comparison and you comparing 4e to WoW and calling it silly doesn't prove anything, people said it's MMO-like not WoW-like. Items have levels and rarities associated with them, there are dailies and per-fight abilities with absolutely no reason not to use them, as they cost nothing. The combat is streamlined, you heal like a titan from a simple rest, items have much fewer and shorter descriptions, etc.

Dailies meaning SINGULAR dailies. The cost of not having it is literally nothing, besides that, there is no reason not to use anything that you have. I cannot for the life of me remember seeing a cost to using a spell as a wizard, they're essentially sorcerers.

That is very MMO-like. I'm super injured, but sleeping for this singular night will make me as good as gold! Even in a fantasy world this makes no sense, and is extremely gamey. It could be argued that it saves time, but it does so in a very ****** way.

I don't really see how the comparison between encounters and some 3.5 stuff as helpful in any way when everyone in 4e has encounters to my knowledge. And it IS quite MMO like, sort of how in some dungeons in various MMOs there is terrain or items used to deal good damage or lay down status effects to effect the boss, with no cost for doing it all, no worry. Yes, resting for 5 minutes gets your stuff back, so there's little reason not to do it. That enforces either GM ********* to STOP that, or min-maxing from players, there's a few instances where i've seen this work in a nice way. Second winds are a good way to look at those rests, and I don't hate the concept of it, but it heals so unbelievably much, just like the full-time sleep. You are demigod, not a hero. You heal like a troll.

I don't see how that's not half-assed when you're essentially trying to do a GM and player's job for them. "nonono, don't use THOSE items, those items are for level 1 peasants. You want THIS item, this item is for level 3 paragons!" I agree it's set up well mechanically, but that mechanic is a very video gamey system.

And what RPG are you pulling that **** from? Barbarian rages aren't limited in a strict sense, and also have SEVERE side effects for having used them, IE: once it's over for that usage, you're exhausted and weakened. Turn undead and bard songs are some of the very few examples, whereas 4e is literally ALL of turn undead and bard songs.

Constrained or not, you still heal like you're a troll/demigod/etc. Yeah, the idea of you shrugging off pain is cool! But knowing that you could just take an 8 hour sleep like anyone else on the planet and recover what should have been an amputated limb (not an actual example), and be as good as if a god had created you right there, makes no sense. That's not hero-like, that's downright stupid. Fighting through the pain is cool, healing like you're the ******* terminator is not.

They have fewer pictures and even shorter descriptions, though this is comparing it to Pathfinder, which is essentially 3.5e + then revises, so I can agree that they're better than in 3.5, but not other roleplaying games. Random items coming with their own little abilities is cool, but also nothing new.

Ah, by cost, do you mean component costs, like some spells requiring a pearl worth 100 gold? Yes, 4E doesn't have that. Then again, most spells in D&D don't do that, either. A fireball just requires a pinch of bat guano, and the game just assumes you have that sort of thing as long as you've got your component pouch with you. It doesn't actually cost any money. 4E does have rituals, however, which represent the magic that costs money, like resurrecting the dead, creating magic items, magically repairing objects, etc.

HP has never been meant to 100% represent how much meat and blood is in your body. It represents how many fatal or near-fatal hits you can avoid through grit, luck, or willpower. When you lose HP it's generally because you got singed, scraped, cut, bruised, had the wind knocked out of you, etc., not when your arm comes off. Getting impaled is usually when you're at 0 or fewer HP. So, healing by resting makes a lot of sense in the context of a hero that probably doesn't have a spear inside their face, because they only lost 10 HP out of 60, or whatever. You don't heal like a troll, because a troll will literally heal X HP every round until you kill it. Eventually, you'll run out of healing surges.

It doesn't do a GM or player's job for them, though it does tend to make GMing a well-balanced campaign much easier with the tier system as a guide. There's nothing stopping you from buying lower-tier items. In fact, that's usually a good idea, since there's a Heroic, Paragon, and Epic tier version of most items. But, if you're an 11th-level tielfing swordmage who specializes in fire attacks, and you want to keep your +1 flaming falchion because it helps you do more fire stuff, you have a feat or two for fire attacks, and a racial feat for falchions, then it's a killer idea to hold onto that +1 flaming falchion until you can get some kind of better fire-based falchion later on. When it comes to magic items, the tier system is mostly an organizational tool, and isn't even new. It's just been improved. Finding a Major Empowered Rod in 3E is pretty much exactly like finding a +4 Rod of Blasting in 4E.

At least as far as 3E and 3.5 go, Barbarians rage so many times per day based on their level. I believe it's once per day per 4 Barbarian levels, but I could be wrong. And, yeah, there's penalties after the rage is over, but not for very long. Unless pressured by waves of enemies or some other stressful situation, there's no reason the Barbarian couldn't just chill until those penalties were gone. Most fights are over before a Barbarian's rage wears off.

There's no reason to punish players for short rests, though having challenges that keep them from taking short rests once in a while is a good idea. It's not min-maxing, because like the Barbarian mentioned before, most adventurers have an opportunity to chill out, wait for negative stuff like rage fatigue and enemy spells to wear off. It's just part of the flow of the game. Besides, a typical encounter is balanced around players having access to their encounter powers. Many monsters even have their own encounter powers. Your encounter powers don't seem as potentially overpowered when an oni uses his own encounter power to eat your ******* soul for some ungodly amount of negative energy damage.

Multiple classes in earlier editions already had daily powers. Giving Fighters some daily maneuvers that represent the perfect moment to use his best technique, and making a Barbarian's rage also a daily maneuver, is an easy way to make a system that is very balanced. Even in Pathfinder, which I consider much improved over 3E, the Fighter often falls behind the Barbarian because extra feats usually aren't as impactful as Rage, much less Pathfinder's rage powers that let you have some customization over what your rage can and can't do. In 4E, the Fighter is much more competitive with the other classes, and it is wonderful.

...so don't use the items or the quests that the game created in supplemental books? those are for casuals anyway, at best for cherrypicking good ideas for your campaign. the supplementals aren't core rulebooks, and the core rulebooks say nothing like the ******** you're spouting.

Agreed. 5e is so ******* lame, I played it and got bored out of my god damn mind. I can't understand 3.5 for the life of me. 4e is just right. Don't understand the hate. If I could get a neckbeard in here to tell me why 4e is bad, i'd appreciate it, I legit do not understand.

I've asked this question a million times. The answer is always pants-on-head retarded. I wouldn't worry about it.

From what I've seen with 5E, you don't get to choose any feats or optional class features until 4th level, which really bums me out. I like to customize the **** out of my character ASAP. That's part of why I usually play humans, to get an extra feat.

Question; have you ever done a D&D campaign online, over skype or something? It might be cool to set that up with a couple of 4e players, if you know any. I've been thinking about how skype would be a really good platform for D&D, it could work.

But, yes, to answer your question, I have played online. It has its benefits and drawbacks. One of the drawbacks is that everybody is on their computer, and thus might get distracted by surfing FunnyJunk and linking it in the chat or some **** .