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What do you think? Give us your opinion. Anonymous comments allowed.
User avatar #12 - mattdoggy ONLINE (02/18/2013) [-]
>God gives humans free will out of love
>Humans abuse free will by abusing other humans
>Can't just openly stop humans from doing all this dumb crap or else it isn't free will
>without free will there isn't any ability to call it love
>the best way to guide humans is to give them instructions on how to live right and help each other out
>everyone ignores instructions, and generally fails to help each other out
>blames Maker because they screw up the world and then don't like it
#804 to #12 - anonymous (05/17/2013) [-]
what about the free will of the victim? why should the free will of the killer or rapist be spared?
User avatar #805 to #804 - mattdoggy ONLINE (05/17/2013) [-]
It is sad and unfortunate that the killer or rapist imposes his sick and twisted will onto the others, but if there will is stopped there is no will
#697 to #12 - astafarianp (02/19/2013) [-]
Then what's the point of calling him God if he can't stop these things.
User avatar #557 to #12 - CXJokerXD (02/19/2013) [-]
What about the part where if you don't get spashed or dipped in water, you burn for an eternity?
User avatar #564 to #557 - mattdoggy ONLINE (02/19/2013) [-]
Baptism isn't required to go to heaven. It's just a sign to the church body and to the community that you have submitted yourself to following the teachings of Jesus.
#334 to #12 - kerplunking (02/19/2013) [-]
Imagine if a government made rape legal because, HEY! "Freewill", amirite?

Yeah, it'd be ******* stupid.
User avatar #437 to #334 - brettyoke (02/19/2013) [-]
You seem to be assuming there's no punishment for doing wrong. The government isn't going to stop somebody from murdering you, because they aren't there to control everyone, that's not their duty. God will punish the wrongdoers, but will not stop them because everyone has free will.

At least, that's my (and other Christians') beliefs.
#442 to #437 - kerplunking (02/19/2013) [-]
So if a policeman comes across a person being murdered, he doesn't have to stop it, he just has to make sure the murderer is arrested afterwards?
User avatar #449 to #442 - brettyoke (02/19/2013) [-]
For starters, you said the government and legality.

Secondly, I believe that God does save some people some of the time in exceptional situations. However, a policeman isn't always on the spot, and he can't always act.

We'll find out one day.

(Before you say, "well then God favors people hurr durr." Some people are more innocent than others, some people just truly deserve to be protected, despite free will)
#471 to #449 - kerplunking (02/19/2013) [-]
And some little girls deserve to be raped, of course.
User avatar #475 to #471 - brettyoke (02/19/2013) [-]
I guess you wouldn't understand where I'm coming from if you come from a different side than me. Some people believe God doesn't interfere at all, I believe he does little this's and that's.
#501 to #475 - kerplunking (02/19/2013) [-]
Of course.

When you find $20 on the floor, "It's a miracle!"

When millions are starving in Africa, "God works in mysterious ways".
User avatar #690 to #501 - maturityFAIL (02/19/2013) [-]
I think believers will always find a way to defend their religion because it's so vague to begin with. They twist it and pick and choose and rationalize until it works with their argument. I really don't care if they do believe or not, but what I hate is when they give this sense that they think they're better than you. Same goes to atheists that think that way, even though I completely agree with them.
User avatar #507 to #501 - brettyoke (02/19/2013) [-]
Oh my, this isn't your average everyday athiest.

This is, an internet athiest.

I don't praise God when I find $20 mate, and I don't call it God's work that children starve in Africa. Quit being a stereotypical dicksqueeze.
#526 to #507 - kerplunking (02/19/2013) [-]
I'm glad you acknowledge that most of my fellow atheists are not like me, I wouldn't want them to get blamed for my jimmyrustlin'.

But seriously, you have no argument. An omnipotent deity could help everyone that needed help, and don't say that he only helps those that "deserve it" because that's blatant ******** .

We can keep arguing in circles and you can keep making fallacies, but at the end of the day we're both wasting our time. Good day sir.
User avatar #732 to #526 - brettyoke (02/19/2013) [-]
Whatever floats your boat.
User avatar #43 to #12 - nightmaren (02/18/2013) [-]
If he's all powerful and can do anything and everything, why can't he just force a wall to erupt from the ground and start beating the **** out of the rapist? If he makes something happen which would prevent the rape, without actually just going into the rapists mind and making him go "actually i dont think i want to rape this kid bye now", then there's still free will.
I have free will, supposedly, and I'm using it to write this comment, but if right at this moment something came to prevent me from typing it without actually controlling my mind, I'd still have free will.
Preventing a rape =/= Infringing on people's free will
User avatar #84 to #43 - deezknuts (02/18/2013) [-]
double standard dude

and who is to say that whatever "God" or divine spirit or whatever hasn't already prevented a ******** of rapes from happening?

like what if theres billions of opportunities to get raped every second that hang in the balance but since the opportunities allow for such a small, insignificant probabiity, the rapes almost never occur?
User avatar #55 to #43 - mattdoggy ONLINE (02/18/2013) [-]
Well if i gave you the option to get a hundred dollar bill, but i handcuffed you to a cement block and taped the hundred dollar bill to the ceiling, could i say you didn't want the hundred dollars.
An immediate and clear hand of interference with someone's actions is an impeding of free will.
There are some acceptable things that we could see happening, like getting a better offer to do something else, A friend advising you not to do it and that its a bad idea, or just having a bad feeling about it.
User avatar #65 to #55 - nightmaren (02/18/2013) [-]
But you're not impeding my free will. I can still try to get it. Just because something becomes extremely difficult, that doesn't mean it impedes my free will to do so.
I wouldn't be able to get the 100$ bill, that doesn't mean my free will to do so is non-existent. If you wanted to impede my free will, you'd have to alter my mind or sub-conscious, essentially controlling my mind, to do so.
If I want to build an under-ground base in the moon's core, I still have the free-will to do so.
Just because there's almost 0 chance of it happening, that doesn't mean I don't have the free will to do it.
User avatar #29 to #12 - cheesymondo (02/18/2013) [-]
oh okay, lets follow these rules:
punishment for fortune telling - death
punishment for hitting a parent - death
punishment for cursing a parent - death
punishment for not listening to a priest - death
punishment for following another religion - death
punishment for adultery - death
punishment for not seeking the lord god of Israel - death
punishment for fornication - death
punishment for prophesising falsely - death
punishment for homosexuality - death
punishment for blasphemy - death
punishment for working on the sabbath - death
punishment for having non believers in the town - death to the whole town
punishment for rape - 50 shekels to the father for his new wife.
chose the bible's punishments but since intelligent design "theory" could point to any religion with a creator, could easily use the Quran
User avatar #67 to #29 - Crusader (02/18/2013) [-]
Um, don't know if you realize this, but Islam and Christianity are both evolutions of Judaism.
User avatar #271 to #67 - cheesymondo (02/19/2013) [-]
i knew Christianity, but Islam i was unaware of descending from Judaism. i wasnt sure if Muhammad had endorsed the OT as jesus did.
User avatar #278 to #271 - Crusader (02/19/2013) [-]
Ok, so this is the run down on Islam
Islam was created by Muhammad
No one knows what religion Muhammad was before he created Islam, but it is most likely he was Jewish
He went and prayed and found god
Told his wife and his cousin, they became the first Muslims
Muhammad turned each message he received from God into a page in the Qu'Ran
Islam still believes in Jewish and Christian prophets, they think Jesus was just a prophets
They think that over the years Christianity and Judaism fell away from the teachings of god, and that what that Qu'Ran is, is word for word, what God wants, because it has never been changed, you can look at a copy as it was written 1000 years ago, and it will be the same as a copy printed yesterday, word for word.
Also, if you are Muslim, you MUST KNOW ARABIC, purely because the Qu'Ran is ONLY IN ARABIC, you can get English translations, german, french, etc. But they will be translations of the Qu'Ran, not a Qu'Ran, not like you can have an English Bible, German Bible, etc.
This is because the Qu'Ran is the recording of what god said, and what it said was in Arabic.

Many things in Islam are similar to Judaism, to the point where the two are closer than Judaism and Christianity
Such things include
- very strict on alcohol (to the point Islam doesn't allow it at all)
- No work during prayer (for Jews this is the Sabbath, for Muslims this is 5 times of prayer a day)
- Religious holidays that are to be done a specific way
- Reverence/disgust of the menstrual cycle
- Similar calendars
- Holy books are in the native language
- Circumcision (it doesn't matter whether you think it is genital mutilation or not, that's just how the religions work)
- Modesty of Women
User avatar #769 to #278 - cheesymondo (02/20/2013) [-]
and when Muhammad was 50 he had sex with a 9 year old. isnt religion wonderful
User avatar #773 to #769 - Crusader (02/20/2013) [-]
No he didn't, pedophilia is actually looked down upon in Islam as much as in Christianity or any other religion.
Things like that come into play like that is a cultural thing, a manipulation of the laws that is in one area.
User avatar #774 to #773 - cheesymondo (02/20/2013) [-]
are you saying lady Ayesha was not in the Quran?
User avatar #776 to #774 - Crusader (02/20/2013) [-]
1 - The age of Ayesha is disputed, I have seen things that have said she was anywhere from 8-15 (13 and above was common marriage age given the time), with most of the things I had seen before I did a google search right now saying she was like 12+
2 - As for why he did it, it was again one of those cultural things that doesn't mix with religion, like Christianity, we are supposed to respect Jewish laws, follow what Jesus did, he didn't eat pork, yet Christians do, because that was a cultural thing and cattle domestication wasn't common place in Europe at that point.
User avatar #778 to #776 - cheesymondo (02/20/2013) [-]
this is where religion falls down. according to the quran Ayesha was married at 6 and had sex at 9 AND was married at 13 and had sex later. i would go with what the Quran actually says.
User avatar #41 to #29 - mattdoggy ONLINE (02/18/2013) [-]
Those rules concern the Jewish laws of the old covenant and were not really considered God's laws, but a set of fence laws set up by the pharisees, to protect people from breaking the core laws.
These things were undone, along with a lot of other things, when Jesus sacrificed himself to atone for all sins.
Also it's important to note that these sentences could be undone with a repentance. Like during the Salem witch trials, if you apologized for being a witch and chose to repent of your wickedness you'd get off the hook with a slap on the wrist.
User avatar #47 to #41 - cheesymondo (02/18/2013) [-]
so the fact that Jesus came to forfill the laws, and shouted at his host when taking dinner (in reply to the host confronting jesus about not observing their eating rituals) about not killing his children when they disobeyed him, thats just not relevant?
User avatar #37 to #29 - ssurtrebor **User deleted account** (02/18/2013) [-]
I like it when people quote Leviticus. It tells me they're atheist because it's cool, not because they actually understand the religion and choose to not believe it.
User avatar #44 to #37 - cheesymondo (02/18/2013) [-]
also, one other thing. how does religion work? is it not by following the orders of your god so as to maximize the chances of going to heaven?
#59 to #44 - cheesymondo has deleted their comment [-]
User avatar #58 to #44 - mattdoggy ONLINE (02/18/2013) [-]
It works basically as you accepting God into your heart and your life. After that you are generally good. The good deeds and not sinning is just a way to keep yourself out of trouble, how to help others, and how to spread the love around. You can't gain any favor or lose any, everybody is loved the same.
#60 to #58 - cheesymondo (02/18/2013) [-]
yeah like this guy.
yeah like this guy.
User avatar #46 to #44 - ssurtrebor **User deleted account** (02/18/2013) [-]
I don't know about any other religion, but as for Christianity, there is no "Maximizing your chances." You're either getting in or you're not, and there isn't a complicated rule set to follow either.
User avatar #49 to #46 - cheesymondo (02/18/2013) [-]
if you don't follow your god's rules you go to hell
User avatar #50 to #49 - ssurtrebor **User deleted account** (02/18/2013) [-]
If you're not perfect, you go to hell.

Should I continue and explain, or will you just ignore me and go on throwing out Leviticus and Deuteronomy verses to paint Christianity as "bad?"
User avatar #74 to #50 - tehcashew (02/18/2013) [-]
It doesn't matter if you are perfect or not. Once you truly accept God into your heart you are in, if the apostle Paul can do it then anyone can and he killed thousands of Christians before finding God.
User avatar #754 to #74 - ssurtrebor **User deleted account** (02/19/2013) [-]
"Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect." Matthew 5:48 That's right from Jesus himself.
User avatar #764 to #754 - tehcashew (02/19/2013) [-]
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
-John 3:16

You took that verse to literally, Jesus was trying to say to strive to perfection as God is perfect, not "You only get to heaven if you are perfect"
User avatar #53 to #50 - cheesymondo (02/18/2013) [-]
oh so we're all going to hell, awesome.

you may continue, as long as you know of the NT bad parts.
User avatar #756 to #53 - ssurtrebor **User deleted account** (02/19/2013) [-]
There are no bad parts of the New Testament.

Here's how you go to heaven: Be perfect in God's eyes. Unfortunately, by ourselves, that's impossible, so yes, you're technically correct. We're all going to hell.

However, thanks to Jesus living a perfect life and sacrificing himself for us, we become perfect through him, and are allowed into heaven.

The only thing we have to do is believe that Jesus did just that for us, and that he is the only true God. Everything else? Details.
User avatar #48 to #46 - cheesymondo (02/18/2013) [-]
jesus came to for fill the law.
User avatar #39 to #37 - cheesymondo (02/18/2013) [-]
so in your opinion we should ignore jesus and throw out the ot?
most people are atheist because it's rational, reasonable and logical.
User avatar #45 to #39 - ssurtrebor **User deleted account** (02/18/2013) [-]
The Old Testament laws are not applicable anymore.

Some people are atheist because they know the different religions and choose not to believe in any of them. That's respectable.

Most people don't know anything about any religion, and are just atheist because "HURR CONTRADICTIONS LOL."

So far you've fallen into the latter of the two.
User avatar #52 to #45 - cheesymondo (02/18/2013) [-]
oh atheists, most of them, it's true have not really thought about it and naturally come to a scientific way of thinking.

atheism will always be misrepresented, like being a religion or hating an imaginary character.

some people however, are atheist because of the lack of evidence for any sort of creator, and believe religion does far more harm than good.
#20 to #12 - kanade **User deleted account** has deleted their comment [-]
User avatar #26 to #20 - patrickmiller (02/18/2013) [-]
Your view of Free will is flawed, God gave us the capacity to murder but also the capacity to love it is us who chooses what we will do with the gift he has given us.
Free will only gives us the capacity to do things we gave ourselves the desire to do evil.
#28 to #26 - kanade **User deleted account** has deleted their comment [-]
User avatar #30 to #28 - patrickmiller (02/18/2013) [-]
And we have the free will to get those murderers help or do better research on the cosmos and have gotten those people evacuated, we make the world what it is,
You state random events as if someone let them happen when no one did because God does not interfere in the world of man.
#33 to #30 - kanade **User deleted account** has deleted their comment [-]
User avatar #36 to #33 - patrickmiller (02/18/2013) [-]
Look you don't seem to be understanding what I'm saying to you and I am probably not fully getting what you're saying, so let's stop here both of us with our opposing ideological views. But keep in mind God makes the world but we put it together, you don't blame the Lego company for what a kid makes with their Legos.
#40 to #36 - kanade **User deleted account** has deleted their comment [-]
User avatar #25 to #20 - mattdoggy ONLINE (02/18/2013) [-]
Free will gives people the ability to do a lot of wrong things, you can rape, murder, lie, cheat, etc. That means you can also have the will to protect, comfort, help, and support.
It does suck that the world we live in is so messed up but we are the ones shaping it.
People are starving when we produce enough food to support everyone in the world and then some. People get mugged and robbed because we force the robbers into desperation and then turn a blind eye to those being robbed.
The way ive always seen it is as a sort of child like aspect. Making your kid do something good is one thing, but having them do good on their own because they listened to you and learned from you is a really rewarding feeling.
#27 to #25 - kanade **User deleted account** has deleted their comment [-]
#16 to #12 - anonymous (02/18/2013) [-]
Why did he need to give us free will exactly? Why doesn't he just snap is magic fingers and make everything fine? Or better yet, give us free will or remove all pain and suffering such as is in, for example heaven. Why not make everyone in heaven to start with?
User avatar #14 to #12 - volleys (02/18/2013) [-]
So God should've gave us less free will then?
User avatar #34 to #14 - cheesymondo (02/18/2013) [-]
i think the problem here was "perfect beings" with the desire to murder. surely an all powerful god could just remove that desire. not the desire to rape though, its clear he likes kinky stuff.
User avatar #17 to #14 - mattdoggy ONLINE (02/18/2013) [-]
Free will is needed
if you put a gun to someones head and say "tell me you love me or else i'll shoot you"
their response of "i love you" means nothing
All he wants is to love and be loved, it's up to each individual to reciprocate the feeling and do their best to spread that love
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