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#52541 - englman (02/03/2013) [-]
Hear me out please, this is really bothering me.  (I also posted this on the Religion board earlier, just saying.)   
I'm Christian and recently came to a very disturbing conclusion.. I thought I had maybe made a 'discovery' even, but it turns out I just 're-discovered' a concept called "Determinism."    
   
Basically, it's the opposite of free-will. Environment and Biology (Every factor in existence basically) is what causes you to think/do everything that you do. My particular chain of events is what makes me, me. They're also what led me to write this on Funny Junk right now, and your chain ultimately led you to read this.    
   
What I would like to know is are there any problems with this concept? (Any major holes that I'm missing) Because if not, this means the Universe is a massive domino effect that only had 1 way that it can play out from the beginning. Essentially a monstrous story-book where we have no free-will. Everything we do is just driven by a very complex set of circumstances/factors/etc. Then our ego probably makes us believe WE are in control, when we really aren't. This would be a massive problem for anyone of faith, I think.. It would suggest predetermination, God favoring people (a human concept for something that shouldn't be human, thus making Him look man-made), free-will being a lie, etc.etc.etc.    
   
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Hear me out please, this is really bothering me. (I also posted this on the Religion board earlier, just saying.)
I'm Christian and recently came to a very disturbing conclusion.. I thought I had maybe made a 'discovery' even, but it turns out I just 're-discovered' a concept called "Determinism."

Basically, it's the opposite of free-will. Environment and Biology (Every factor in existence basically) is what causes you to think/do everything that you do. My particular chain of events is what makes me, me. They're also what led me to write this on Funny Junk right now, and your chain ultimately led you to read this.

What I would like to know is are there any problems with this concept? (Any major holes that I'm missing) Because if not, this means the Universe is a massive domino effect that only had 1 way that it can play out from the beginning. Essentially a monstrous story-book where we have no free-will. Everything we do is just driven by a very complex set of circumstances/factors/etc. Then our ego probably makes us believe WE are in control, when we really aren't. This would be a massive problem for anyone of faith, I think.. It would suggest predetermination, God favoring people (a human concept for something that shouldn't be human, thus making Him look man-made), free-will being a lie, etc.etc.etc.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
#52613 to #52541 - tuxwonder ONLINE (02/04/2013) [-]
I believe at the macro level, all of our actions are detemined by the combination of nurture and nature. I'm not sure at what level with quantum randomness the universe actually has some multiple outcomes, but I do believe that if somehow a person were able to repeat a scenario multiple times with the EXACT same conditions like in Groundhogs day (except for remembering that you're repeating the days), that person would repeat their actions every time the exact same way.
User avatar #52565 to #52541 - techketzer (02/03/2013) [-]
Look up "Quantum tunneling".
There is no set chain, no "event A, therefore event B", no causality; there is only chance and probability.
The universe is throwing dice every time a particle so much as rotates.

While it may be that our free will is still an illusion created inside our brains, the physical determinism you speak of does not exist.
User avatar #52647 to #52565 - englman (02/04/2013) [-]
This is a bit over my head, so forgive me. But could Quantum Tunneling possibly be a factor in our brains/part of how our minds work? And if so, would this type of "randomness" pose the potential for free-will?
User avatar #52675 to #52647 - techketzer (02/04/2013) [-]
Basically, the rules and laws that would predetermine the course of the universe aren't rules and laws, but only guidelines.
Single particles violate and defy them all the time, introducing randomness and unpredictability into the whole system.

Our brains consist of billions of cells. Every cell consists of trillions of atoms.
At no point in time is there no quantum tunneling-phenomenon happening inside our heads.
It also affects our DNA, causing mutations at random, influencing who we are and become by total chance.

Were that not enough, tunneling particles can, in a certain frame of reference, arrive at their destination before leaving their original position.
That means we must question the concept of causality as a whole.

Basically, no, there is no determinism.
Maybe our free will is just an illusion, but if so we're not slaves of fate, but of chance.
User avatar #52680 to #52675 - englman (02/05/2013) [-]
Very interesting. Thank you so much for the great explanation. This helped me out quite a bit:)
User avatar #52706 to #52680 - techketzer (02/05/2013) [-]
Any time. That same ghost of determinism plagued me once upon a time, the fucker.
#52560 to #52541 - anonymous (02/03/2013) [-]
a friend of me once wrote an essay about this (while he was high, he said), it basically said everything will happen in a certain way, but that doesnt mean you cant change anything/have no free will, because it didnt happen yet , you make the future.
User avatar #52567 to #52560 - techketzer (02/03/2013) [-]
Yeah, sounds like he was pretty high.
User avatar #52554 to #52541 - messager (02/03/2013) [-]
that seems like another word for fate.
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