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#40 - vladhellsing ONLINE (01/05/2016) [-]
Lies and deceit!

> Chainmail wasn't impervious to all attacks and especially not arrows. In fact there were special arrowheads developed (called 'bodkin' points) designed specifically to penetrate maille armour. Shields or hardened plate armour and the padded gambeson underneath were what saved soldier's lives from arrows, not chainmail.
> 95% of casualties weren't inflicted during the rout - an army would only rout when they already lost a good portion of their men and there was no hope of winning. It's very difficult to catch up to and kill a scattering army and usually not worth the trouble since your own forces would be scattered in the process.
> Well, the definition of "child" has changed dramatically over the centuries so I'm not sure what to make of this one. And neither does OP.
> High-born commanders... yeah, that's fairly accurate.
> While it's true that every archer (even the feared English longbowmen) were also foot soldiers trained in melee and utilised swords, falchions and such for personal defence, the bow was not an entirely useless defence weapon. Even the mighty longbow could be used to keep a handful of people at bay. And even when they were deployed en masse, archers would wait until the enemy was within a reasonable kill range and aim for the torso. The idea of archers simply lobbing arrows hundreds of yards at a very high trajectory is something seen in movies and nowhere else - especially in the days of armoured fighting where the only hopes one would have of penetrating armour with an arrow is by shooting them up close.
> Fire like a machine gun? No it ******* couldn't. First off, you don't "fire" a bow because there's no fire or gunpowder involved. Shouting "Ready! Aim! FIRE!" to medieval archers would cause them all to look around in panic wondering where the fire was. And secondly, the typical rate of fire of an English archer was something like 12 arrows per minute. Hardly machinegun-like now, is it?
> Well, their arms had to be. And it was quite easy to get that arm strength just by practising (it was actually made law for citizens to practise archery every Sunday so they'd be prepared for war). Being an archer didn't require special heroes of Herculean strength - it just required an average Joe who'd undergone the same training as everyone else.
> This one is somewhat true, there are accounts of "pincushion" Crusaders who were stuck with multiple arrows but could continue fighting. However all armour has gaps in it, and I don't think Crusaders would just march defiantly into a storm of arrows expecting not to get hit in the eye socket or something.
> A 'knight' was a rank of nobility, not a dude in armour. While it's true that the nobles who fought in battles were usually the only ones who could afford a full set of plate armour, many 'knights' never participated in any fighting. And any PTSD suffered by a knight on the battlefield was also suffered by the common foot soldier. It wasn't a condition exclusive to knights.
> Yeah, more or less. But notions of honour & glory were ways of encouraging soldiers (especially nobles) to fight.
> Not entirely true. Bows were still more 'effective' than even firearms of the American & French revolutions, but they weren't used because bullets were cheaper to produce, could be carried in greater quantities, were more effective against shields & armour and required less strength & training to use.
> Plate armour wasn't entirely bulletproof.
> Not sure.
> Not sure.
> True. Battles were actually pretty rare, sieges were the most common form of conflict. And even then they weren't exactly Helm's Deep. www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IO-CooA4_Y
> It's pretty hard to 'hack' through mail, and even in the days of full plate armour many soldiers still carried arming swords & bucklers (such as archers).
> Back then they were all just called "swords". Terminology for different sword types is a modern invention.
#337 to #40 - anon (01/06/2016) [-]
You're nitpicking and taking stuff literally for at least 40% of your post. Of course a longbow cannot literally fire as fast as a ******* machine gun, of course medieval archers didn't have "herculean strength", they didn't say chainmail was impervious to ALL attacks, and I'm sure it included the padded gambeson, of course PTSD wasn't EXCLUSIVE to knights. Jfc man, I'm all for fact checking, but there was so much crap in there that bugged me.
#328 to #40 - anon (01/05/2016) [-]
And skallagrim will probably support you 100%
User avatar #307 to #40 - mooghens (01/05/2016) [-]
> 95% of casualties weren't inflicted during the rout - an army would only rout when they already lost a good portion of their men and there was no hope of winning.
There is no sure way to say exactly what would cause a rout in medieval battles, simply because a rout is exactly what it is: A disorganized unauthorized retreat enmasse by the army. It was under no circumstance a planned event by anyone who had any kind of responsibillity whom did their job. This guy does a good job of explaining it Routs in battles - where do they start?
User avatar #305 to #40 - peyko (01/05/2016) [-]
Lars Andersen: a new level of archery

Fire like a machine gun was possible back then. Excuse me.
#317 to #305 - alexanderh (01/05/2016) [-]
None of the arrows that guy fired would have done anything to a person wearing even a padded jack, and the bow he's using is MUCH weaker than anything used back then. Speed shooting a bow is a useless skill, and it wasn't done in medieval times.
#331 to #317 - anon (01/05/2016) [-]
Yeah, he's a trick shooter who has plagued the internet with his claims that he has 'rediscovered lost techniques' (And somehow people who study his sources for a living didn't notice before him? Yeah, no.) And people will defend him to the end. His bow probably has a 30 lb draw weight, and he doesn't pull it back all the way. It's impressive, but not practical. His claims, on the other hand, aren't impressive. They're pathetic.
User avatar #349 to #331 - angelusprimus (01/06/2016) [-]
You are almost right. Its a 50lbs draw bow, it would do jack **** against an armored opponent.
Good for hunting, useless in combat unless you are sniping peasants.
User avatar #326 to #317 - peyko (01/05/2016) [-]
*roll picture? Yet he was able to penetrate chainmail armor?
#334 to #326 - alexanderh (01/05/2016) [-]
Probably low quality butted mail, which wasn't used in medieval europe.
The armour is CLEARLY butted mail, which has much weaker links than riveted mail.
Plus, that's not penetrating. Yes, they're sticking out of the target, but they wouldn't pierce both the mail, the padded jack, and the skin of the target.
#340 to #334 - peyko (01/06/2016) [-]
GIF
**peyko used "*roll picture*"**
**peyko rolled image** Aight, I see your points.

Thanks.
User avatar #343 to #340 - relvel (01/06/2016) [-]
I only meet a handful of people who are willing to admit they were wrong per week. Good in you.
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#327 to #326 - peyko has deleted their comment [-]
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#329 to #327 - peyko has deleted their comment [-]
User avatar #298 to #40 - eiaisqzbsesb (01/05/2016) [-]
You're pretty spot on about these, except for the rout part. While it's true that there were more people killed in the actual fighting than the rout, most casualties of routs being attributed to routing soldiers tripping and being trampled to death by their buddies... I digress, while it's true that the actual fighting had more casualties than the routs, it is not true that routing only happens when an army has lost a good portion of their men and had no hope of winning. It was actualy quite common for winning armies to rout, or for routs to happen before even a lot of blood has been shed. Lindybeige makes a very fine point of this when speculating when and where a rout begins. Routs in battles - where do they start?
#293 to #40 - peyko (01/05/2016) [-]
GIF
**peyko used "*roll picture*"**
**peyko rolled image** Nice.
#257 to #40 - darkjack (01/05/2016) [-]
12 arrows per minute multiplied by a few hundred archers = faux-machine gun of arrows?
User avatar #265 to #257 - vladhellsing ONLINE (01/05/2016) [-]
By that definition anything can be fired like a machine gun.
User avatar #272 to #265 - angelusprimus (01/05/2016) [-]
Well, there is always a "commoner rail gun" from D&D.
User avatar #240 to #40 - FirstSrMeme (01/05/2016) [-]
Most casualties did occur in the retreat, perhaps not 95% but a sizable majority. Calvary could easily pursue and destroy routed infantry. My sources for this are mostly ancient, but the principle is the same. Adrian Goldsworthy (military historian) mentions in almost every single one of his books that this is in fact the case. Most soldiers during a pitched battle weren't even fighting, let alone dying, but stood behind the front ranks as they engaged.
User avatar #156 to #40 - angelusprimus (01/05/2016) [-]
Just a few points.
> Even with bodkin arrows good thick riveted maile would slow arrows enough to catch them with gambeson. Even stop them outright (though links would get broken)
> Highborn commanders got bad reputation deservedly but lot after middle ages. It started with buying commissions in 17th and 18th century.
> Knight became a noble rank, and today is pretty much just a honor, but in early to late middle ages knight was a mounted heavy soldier who was paid for his service with being given enough land to support him. Knight's fee or fief.
> Normans didn't invent castles (that would be french), knights (that would be either Franks or Byzantines depending on if we agree cataphracts are knights or not) or finalized feudal system (french again, but Normans DID take it with them to england and finalized it there). They did conquer all those lands.
> You can't hack through the maile, (well you COULD but you'd have to keep hitting the exact same place to break the links and then keep hitting to get trhough gambeson and bone... you'r opponent is probably not going to cooperate, and you'll destroy your very expensive sword) to get through the armor you used thrust and your own weight. Swords were still used in 17th century, because they were pretty damned useful things.

You know a lot, I like you.
#350 to #320 - angelusprimus (01/06/2016) [-]
Example of patterns.
Difference in thickness and overlapping of links is huge.
User avatar #348 to #320 - angelusprimus (01/06/2016) [-]
I've seen it.
Here's the problem with this test, even his high quality riveted maile was only 4 in 1, fairly thin pattern.
I'd like to see how it would go with a thick high quality 6 in 1 or even king's maile (8 in 1)
Second, no knight put chainmail over a simple coat. Maile went over a gambeson which is an armor in itself. So layered knight would have multiple levels of protection and a chance of an arrow penetrating to the skin (especially to killing hit) drops a lot.
Except for that, this is one of better tests I've seen.
#125 to #40 - araell ONLINE (01/05/2016) [-]
in half of those you are just being a dick
#338 to #125 - garymotherfingoak (01/06/2016) [-]
if you think the above comment is considered dickish, then i don't think this site is for you. leave while you still have your innocence.
#352 to #338 - araell ONLINE (01/06/2016) [-]
I've been visiting this site for about 6 years now. Just trying not to became an edgelord like half of the community.
#122 to #40 - hongkonglongdong (01/05/2016) [-]
Damn straight. I've always ******* hated OP's pic.

Normans were pretty damn powerful, and the Byzzies did have a lot of tactical research.
User avatar #69 to #40 - sudminator (01/05/2016) [-]
Well said, you seem to know your stuff. The post really rustled your jimmies eh
User avatar #52 to #40 - harasai (01/05/2016) [-]
> an army would only rout when they already lost a good portion of their men and there was no hope of winning.

no anon seriously it's true , look at casualty figures for anything that wasn't a hard fought battle, at times the victorious force would lose less than a tenth of the defeated force
routing is a way bigger part of melee combat than most people realize, heck even in Napoleonic times cavalry fights would end with 1 side routing before they reached melee and getting cut don in the back

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